Surviving Burning Man, Staring at Tattoos, Sending Extra Holiday Cards, and More

Nick: Do you litter in the desert? Do you stare too long at tattoos? Do you do the wrong thing with your gum? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So as you know, the amuse bouche is supposed to be a little nugget of information that I want you to know about. Like, I want you to know how to eat Peking duck or what to do if you're going to polo in the Hamptons. And so for today's amuse bouche—actually, Leah, can you guess? You will never guess.

Leah: Can I guess?

Nick: In a million years, you will never guess.

Leah: Of all the things? Let me guess.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Does it have to do with the Alps? Does it have to do with the Alps and a hot beverage?

Nick: No. So for today's amuse bouche, I want to talk about the FBI's tips for hostage negotiation.

Leah: Oh, that was my second guess.

Nick: [laughs] So stay with me. This is very relevant. So I came across this article from, like, 30 years ago that was written by Gary Nestner. And he was then the chief negotiator with the FBI's Critical Incident Response Group. And so, like, he was their chief hostage negotiator. And in this article, he talks about how to diffuse high-pressure situations. And as I'm reading this, I'm like, "Oh, golly, this sure sounds handy for the rest of life." Like, hello? Thanksgiving dinner. I mean, I feel like these tips could be very useful. And so he developed for the FBI the seven skills for active listening. And so the goal of these skills is to try to calm volatile confrontations. And you want to build rapport and show empathy and then steer people in a better direction. And so oh, doesn't that sound useful for a lot of our lives?

Leah: Very!

Nick: I mean, right? And active listening does not require you to agree with the person. It just says, "Oh, I hear you." And so I'll post a link to this paper so you can read the whole thing. But let's just go through the seven real quick and I'll give you the highlights, and then we can all use these in our lives. And then oh, won't that family dinner be great?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So the first thing is to give minimal encouragement. And so to just show that you're listening, to demonstrate this, you just want to give brief "Yep, yes." Head nods. "Okay." You just want to sprinkle in the conversation these words. And so this just demonstrates, like, "Oh, okay. I hear you. And then the second one is paraphrasing. And so you just want to restate what the person just said. So if they're like, "Oh, I cannot believe Lisa brought the casserole and I told her not to," you would then say back to that person, like, "Ugh, you can't believe that Lisa brought the casserole."

Leah: After you told her not to.

Nick: Right. So you just want to be like, "Oh, yeah. I hear that you are annoyed by Lisa and the casserole." And so you're just, like, paraphrasing that back. Which shows that you're also listening because you had to listen to hear what they said to say these words back to them. The third thing is emotional labeling. And so you say things like "You seem if." Or "You sound as though." And then either they're gonna agree with you and be like, "Yeah, I am that way." Or they're gonna disagree with you and be like, "No, I'm not that way." And either way, it helps you get on the same page. And being on the same page is very important for developing that rapport. And you'll need that rapport later when you're gonna try and steer them in a better direction.

Leah: Or you're gonna try to manipulate them to do your will.

Nick: Well, I mean, all this is a little manipulative, right? But I mean, at what price harmony at Thanksgiving dinner?

Leah: Also, I think this is a good point. If you notice that somebody's doing this to you at Thanksgiving dinner.

Nick: Oh, for sure. Be like, "Are you paraphrasing?" [laughs]

Leah: Are you paraphrasing? Are you doing the seven things of de-escalation from the FBI right now?

Nick: [laughs] The next thing on the list is mirroring. And so you just repeat, like, the last words or the main idea of what they just said. And this also conveys that you're, like, listening and understanding. And apparently, mirroring is really good to do early on in negotiations because it isn't asking questions yet. And questions can sometimes feel like an interrogation. So for rapport building, it just sort of helps build that foundation.

Nick: But then the next tip is actually kind of the opposite, which is to actually ask open-ended questions, things that aren't just like yes or no. So, like, "Can you tell me more about that?" Or, like, "I'd like to know more about what you mean." And, like, this allows the person to sort of collect their thoughts and sort through their emotions. And so open-ended questions can be very good for this.

Nick: And then the next thing is to use "I" statements and they're better than "you" statements. So, like, instead of, like, "Oh, you're doing such and such," it's more like, "Oh, I feel like." And Nestner actually gives a great example, which is "We've been talking for several hours and I feel frustrated that we haven't been able to come to an agreement." And, like, oh, haven't we all felt that at a really long dinner with family who have different opinions than us? So very relevant, totally relevant.

Nick: And then the last one is interesting. It's to use pauses. And it can be helpful just to stay silent. We don't always have to fill dead air. We can just let something sit for a moment. And apparently, this is also very useful for, like, getting negotiations to move forward because it's very difficult to just have a one-sided conversation. And if there's a pause, it does require them to sort of stop and then wait for a response from you. And so pauses. This is key.

Leah: Nicholas Leighton, giving us so much different information from so many different places.

Nick: Yep, yep. Everything from how to sip espresso in Naples to negotiate hostages. Yep, you get it all here, folks.

Leah: This is fantastic. This is fantastic.

Nick: And finally, one thing in the paper really caught my eye and it's quote, "Negotiators generally achieve peaceful resolutions only after they demonstrate their desire to be non judgmental, non threatening and understanding of the subject's feelings. And I thought, huh, isn't that etiquette in a nutshell?

Leah: I love it.

Nick: Yeah. So listeners, try these seven tips. I'd be curious to see if they work for you.

Leah: I definitely was at a party last week. I could have used this.

Nick: If only we had this last week, Leah.

Leah: If only we'd had this last week.

Nick:

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and into the desert.

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about Burning Man.

Leah: How odd!

Nick: How odd. Indeed.

Leah: How specific.

Nick: Very specific. So Leah, you were at Burning Man earlier this year?

Leah: Yes, I was at Burning Man. My first Burning Man, I actually went with a group to do comedy. And there's a lot of etiquette at Burning Man.

Nick: So for our listeners who may not know what Burning man is, explain it.

Leah: So geographically, you go to Reno.

Nick: Reno, Nevada.

Leah: Reno, Nevada. You drive about three hours into the desert.

Nick: So this is in the middle of nowhere.

Leah: And then you turn off the road and drive into the desert, a place they call Black Rock City.

Nick: Which is not a real city. It is created specifically for this event.

Leah: I went in for build week, which means I went in before it was going. We built our camp.

Nick: So every year, Burning man is an annual event where they basically create a city of how many people?

Leah: About 70,000 people.

Nick: 70,000 people in the desert.

Leah: In the desert. And it's very cool if you go in first because you see it from nothing to 70,000 people.

Nick: And there's literally nothing there. It is flat desert land.

Leah: And you're—it's set up like a clock. Like, we were at 7:30 and G. So it's the times on a clock and then through the alphabet.

Nick: Because geographically it is a big circle.

Leah: Yes. Around the man, which is a large wooden ...

Nick: I realize as we're trying to explain what Burning Man is, how difficult it is to convey just what this thing is.

Leah: And so the man is there, and then it gets burned. He gets burned at the end of the week.

Nick: So there's an effigy of a man in the center of the clock.

Leah: Well, at sort of the top.

Nick: I see. Okay.

Leah: And then behind the man is a temple.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And then behind them are these incredible art installations that you bike out to in the middle of the night, wrapped in lights, looking at.

Nick: So 70,000 people descend. They have to bring everything with them because there's nothing there.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: It's not like there's electricity or plumbing or roads or anything. And how long does this go on for?

Leah: It's a week-long event.

Nick: All right. So it's pretty quick.

Leah: It's not that quick if—you know, when you don't have running water or toilets. You know, a week is a long time.

Nick: [laughs] Fair enough.

Leah: And, like, the idea is that every camp has a gift.

Nick: Right. Okay. So let's actually get into the etiquette of Burning Man. And so that's apparently one of the big things that this is a gifting culture. It is not a barter culture. And there's definitely no money involved.

Leah: Once you pass through the gates, there is no money.

Nick: Right. Okay. How interesting. But then there's also no bartering.

Leah: No, it's just a gift. So every camp has a gift. Our gift was comedy. You come to our shows. We also had seminars. That was our gift. So it's free to anybody. And then when you pass through the gates, let me say this up top, You get a book. Look how thick this book is, Nick.

Nick: Oh, very thick.

Leah: With all of the free activities. So all the things that the camps give and what time. So, like, one next door to us was finding your soulmate for you. People go in, fill out a form. They find your soulmate.

Nick: Amazing. A little bit down the road from us, were people that would give you face masks and spritz you with water and you drink lemonade.

Nick: Okay. Spa tent.

Leah: Some people had—poutine was a very big one. It was poutine at midnight. There was iced coffee. There—you know, there was—there was a shower tent. There was all these different kinds of—then I'm sure there was, like, actual workshops. You know, it's my first time. I barely gleaned the surface.

Nick: Interesting.

Leah: But in this booklet, when you go through, there's the 10 principles of Burning Man, which they have—I feel like that is separate from what I'm going to give you from the etiquette tips. But there are principles.

Nick: But I think one of the etiquette rules is you gotta—you got to follow the local etiquette, which requires you to follow these principles.

Leah: But Nick told me I should only give you three, otherwise I would just read the 10 principles. But he said I was ...

Nick: [laughs] We only have so much—give me the highlights.

Leah: What I'm saying is the etiquette tips I'm giving you are more, like, hands on. Whereas the 10 principles of Burning Man, I think are also etiquette. But Nick put me on a timeline.

Nick: [laughs] Wow. It's my fault. Okay.

Leah: So I want you guys to know that there are 10 principles that will not be discussed.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So one of the first etiquette rules I'm gonna give you ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And I think this involves for anybody sharing a bathroom in the desert. You put the toilet lid down.

Nick: Okay. So like I'm in a porta potty.

Leah: You're in a porta potty.

Nick: I mean, do porta potties have lids?

Leah: Because otherwise the next person who comes in has to wipe three inches of sand off the toilet seat because it's so windy. The sand is so windy that shutting the door to the porta potty does nothing.

Nick: Wow! Okay. So there's that much dust.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay. And so we just want to protect the seat part.

Leah: Yes. So the next person doesn't have to remove the desert.

Nick: I mean, that's a—that's an etiquette tip, for sure.

Leah: And I feel like that's not gonna be one that's in the booklet. So that's why I'm ...

Nick: Okay, then that's the perfect example for this. Perfect.

Leah: The next one is five miles an hour. That's the fastest you can go.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Because it's set up like blocks. There are people walking, there are people biking. There are families there with small kids. Sometimes people drive through. Like, if you have to move out, or if there's a medical thing, but everybody has to follow: nothing faster than five miles an hour. Which on a bicycle is like ...

Nick: That's slow.

Leah: Right past where you're falling over. You know, it's like almost falling over. And at nighttime, you have to wrap yourself in lights because otherwise people can't see you.

Nick: Right. Right. Yeah, that's important.

Leah: And then my third choice for the three things I was allowed to share, according to Nick.

Nick: [laughs] Wow. Somebody is a little bit out of shape about my restriction.

Leah: I'm not bent out of shape about it at all. I just don't want to take the blowback from people writing in to be like, "You missed one of the most important tenets."

Nick: I see. Okay. If you're mad that Leah's Burning man etiquette tips were incomplete, you can send it my way.

Leah: Yes, that's what I just ...

Nick: That's what you want.

Leah: I'm not mad about it. I just don't want to take ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: It's on Nick. The third one is actually in the book, but it's called 'moop.'

Nick: Moop? M-O-O-P?

Leah: Yes. And it stands for "matter out of place."

Nick: Okay, so what is moop?

Leah: So moop is anything that was on anybody, in anybody's bags, on a tent, that lands on the ground.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Gotta get picked up. You yell "Moop!" because it's flying. If something flies off you or you see something on the ground, "Moop!"

Nick: Okay. Because I guess it's fairly windy in the desert, so this stuff just, like, blows everywhere.

Leah: And it's a leave no trace. You leave—they do checks when you leave. Like, they walk your campground. You're supposed to walk your campground together in, like, a line, and you go through and you make sure there's nothing on the ground. And then you try to kind of kick up the first layer and make sure there's nothing that's been pushed down into the ground.

Nick: Wow. Okay. So, like, glitter? I guess glitter can't be allowed at Burning Man.

Leah: Well, our camp, they were like since we were new, they said, "New people," they said, "don't get stuff with glitter on it."

Nick: Right.

Leah: Unless you want to go pick it all up.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, which seems almost impossible in the desert.

Leah: But, like, you know, we were building tents in a sandstorm, and we were pulling the tent poles out of this packaging and, like, a piece of paper flew out of the packaging.

Nick: Oh.

Leah: And then we all just chased it, you know?

Nick: We yell "Moop!" And then we run after it.

Leah: "Moop!" And then you run. Or, like, you're eating something and it falls on the ground. Everything gets picked up.

Nick: Okay, so "moop." Is "moop" a Burning Man term?

Leah: I've never seen it anywhere else in my life.

Nick: Oh, I like that. So I guess feathers. Feathers must be a problem at Burning Man. Like, if I had, like, a feather boa or something.

Leah: I love that that's what you think everybody was wearing.

Nick: I mean, am I wrong?

Leah: I would say the most—if I had to pick, like, what was the most popular outfit, it was more like in a Mad Max kind of a look.

Nick: Oh. We're doing more of a steampunk thing.

Leah: You know, because it's a lot of scarves, because you're covering your face. And then you got goggles.

Nick: Right. Okay. So it's more Tatooine.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay, I gotcha.

Leah: I'm sure there were boas, but I think people would have to make sure that their feathers were properly fastened.

Nick: And what is noise like? Is there, like, quiet hours? Like, how does that work?

Leah: No.

Nick: So is it just like a din the entire time?

Leah: You're constantly hearing music.

Nick: Music. All hours. 24/7.

Leah: All hours, yes.

Nick: Oh, interesting.

Leah: And then there's also art cars, which were incredible. People have these vehicles that they've—it's amazing. Like, you'll be standing there, and then all of a sudden, like, a huge elephant drives by.

Nick: Not an actual elephant. A car.

Leah: No, but, like, it looks like an elephant. And it's huge. And there are, like, people sitting inside, and they're just playing music. And there are a lot of art cars that would drive by that were just shooting fire.

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: And so all of those things have soundtracks or they're making noise. Plus, camps are making noise.

Nick: Right. Okay, so it's—this is not a quiet reflection kind of thing.

Leah: No. The closer you are to the middle is where, like, all the big concerts are in the middle, out on the playa. You know, the further you go back into the camps, the quieter it gets. But it's never gonna be quiet.

Nick: Interesting. Okay.

Leah: Although I did find when I biked out into the desert with my little lights on, even though you can hear music, it's so peaceful because you're out under the sky. And it's so vast, it looks like you're on the moon.

Nick: And for etiquette, did everybody follow the rules for the most part? Like, is everybody very conscientious?

Leah: Yeah, people are really—community is like at the center of this. And so we only saw, like, one time people raised their voice. These two guys raised their voice at each other, and everybody jumped in to stop it immediately.

Nick: Wow! Okay.

Leah: Everybody's very polite. Everybody's very friendly.

Nick: Amazing. So it's like an etiquette utopia.

Leah: Yeah, the idea is to be like a utopia. There's no money.

Nick: Right. And so with all the gifts that are taking place, do you write thank-you notes? How does that work?

Leah: No, you do not.

Nick: Interesting.

Leah: We are not giving something expecting anything in return.

Nick: Well, I'm not expecting a thank-you note in return for my gifts.

Leah: Nein. You are.

Nick: [laughs] So should I go to Burning Man? Am I a good candidate?

Leah: I was there, and I thought if you had your own little Airstream where you could, I think, go back and reset and make sure—because you didn't have to share it with other people where everybody else is bringing their sand in, you know?

Nick: That sounds right. Mm-hmm.

Leah: I think that you would love the art.

Nick: Yeah, the art part definitely seems like up my alley. It's just the rest of it that is not my alley.

Leah: You might really like it. What if you became a burner?

Nick: What if, Leah? What if?

Leah: You plan your meals for the week. You know, you bring your meals. The art installations are mind boggling. You're like, A) How did this get there? B)People must have worked on them all year.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: They're huge.

Nick: No, I've seen photos. I mean, they definitely—some of the photos do look remarkable. And I imagine in person it is very cool.

Leah: Like, there was this one where it was like a tree of women, and they were all carved into the tree. I mean, it's just the work done. Unbelievable.

Nick: I mean, like, how many tractor trailers does it require to bring some of this stuff in?

Leah: Exactly. I mean, you're loading in a town of 70,000 people with the infrastructure.

Nick: I mean, that is wild.

Leah: And these huge arts in a week. And then they gotta leave again.

Nick: And from an etiquette perspective, it is actually a really good example of why etiquette matters. Because to have 70,000 people show up out of nowhere and create a society and have that society actually work at a fairly high level, you know, it seems very high functioning.

Leah: It's very high functioning.

Nick: Everybody is getting along. Everything is working. You need etiquette. Etiquette is really required to make this function. And so I think it's a great example of, like, why etiquette does matter, that it is not some abstract thing that's not relevant to our lives. It's like, oh, no, the Burning Man etiquette is required to keep all these people safe and happy.

Leah: And from what I understand, your etiquette is how you get a better placement next year. Did your neighbors get along with you? Did you leave any moop? That's how people get placed the following year.

Nick: Oh, so you're being rated by other people about your etiquette behavior.

Leah: About your behavior.

Nick: Oh, isn't that—I mean, finally, etiquette consequences in real time. I mean, this is what I've been dreaming of. Oh, it's great to see society actually put this in practice.

Leah: Yeah. Because it really does depend on everybody being good to each other.

Nick: Oh, okay. So you got a survey, and you got to rate, like, the next tent.

Leah: I did get a survey. I didn't click on it yet. I don't know what's in it.

Nick: Click on it. Oh, yeah. Share your thoughts.

Leah: But one of the fun things is you bring a cup.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: I wore a camelback, so I just had that water on me all the time.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But I had a cup attached to it. And then you would just bike up to places and they'd be like, "Iced coffee, tea," you know? And then you just give them the cup and they just fill it.

Nick: I mean, that's kind of fun.

Leah: It's fun!

Nick: Yeah. It's kind of like being on a cruise ship with all you can eat buffet.

Leah: In the middle of the desert.

Nick: [laughs] Wild. Okay. So would you go back?

Leah: I would go back.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I would pack differently. You know, first time, it's really hard to describe. And when you get there, people tried to describe it to me. You get there, it's way different. You just can't visualize it until you've seen something like it.

Nick: Yeah, some things are like that. Well, thank you Leah, for sharing your wisdom and your etiquette tips even if I didn't let you go through all of them.

Leah: Well, it's just such a learning curve. I'm still learning. I'm sure I missed—you know, I'm sure I didn't quite understand everything, but I mean, I got that. Definitely put the toilet seat down.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Yeah. If you take one thing away from this conversation: put the lid down.

Leah: Put the lid down. Because the desert will infiltrate.

Nick: Everything.

Leah: Everything.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "How long is it permissible to stare at a person's body to figure out just what that tattoo represents, or just to enjoy the art?"

Leah: I think if we're staring at a person's bod, we want to throw out a "I love your tattoo."

Nick: Okay, so you don't want just a stare without a compliment.

Leah: Yeah. I would like to know—if someone was just staring, I think, you know, if you're staring and you realize that they love something that's different than this person is just staring at me.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, my first thought was it's like the sun. Quick glance. That's it. Like, we don't stare at the sun. We glance at the sun.

Leah: I love that Nick there is subtly letting us know if any of us are staring at the sun that we should stop doing it.

Nick: [laughs] Don't do that. Pro tip, everybody. Pro tip. Don't do that.

Leah: I don't know. I think some people have incredible tattoos.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: They're wearing, like, sleeveless shirts. I mean, I don't have any tattoos, so I would love it if our listeners with tattoos would let us know how they felt. Because I've said to people before, "I love your tattoos," and then they show it to me even closer.

Nick: Right. Okay. So I think if we're just gonna stare, then we gotta do it quick. And then if we do want to say something, we also want to make it quick and just complimentary. And then that's it.

Leah: Yeah, because I think if people know why you're looking at something, it makes a difference on how long you look at it.

Nick: And the question is how long? So can we actually give a number of seconds? Is there any more specific we can get?

Leah: I would give it three seconds.

Nick: Three seconds.

Leah: And after that, I want a compliment.

Nick: Okay, so I'm staring now. Two, three.

Leah: Head move.

Nick: "I love your tattoo." Okay. All right. Yeah. No, that kind of feels—yeah, no more than three, though.

Leah: But that's not if I'm face to face with someone.

Nick: Okay. What is that?

Leah: That's if they're sitting next to me. If I'm face to face with you, and then I just break eye contact and stare at a part of your body ...

Nick: Three seconds is a very long time.

Leah: Three seconds is way too long. That needs to be a quick glance. And then a "I love your tattoo." And then if they invite you to look closer, then you look closer.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But say you're at, like, a gathering, and it's like a long picnic table, and you're just, like, looking at the person beside you. But if you are making direct eye contact with—and then break it. It's gotta be a lot shorter than that.

Nick: Okay. Yeah. No, that's fair. Yeah. And I guess the question is also, like, to figure out what the tattoo represents, I guess we have to live with the mystery. I guess we don't necessarily ask unless we feel like that's totally cool.

Leah: Well, I feel like the person who wrote this question is saying that that's why they're staring. They want to figure it out.

Nick: Right.

Leah: Is this an Edgar Allan Poe reference? I don't know. I have to look at all of it, you know?

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Right. And I guess we would say, "I love your tattoo," and you would hope that that would then open the conversation, that you would then learn more about it.

Leah: No, I think if you want to stare at it long enough that you need to read the entire scroll down their arm, you should say a compliment first.

Nick: All right, so we want to get that compliment in pretty quick.

Leah: And then you could tell pretty much by somebody's body language if they want to be looked at or not.

Nick: Yes. I think based on how that compliment goes, then you'd make your next move.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. This reminds me of Tim.

Leah: Do I know Tim?

Nick: Oh, do you want an art story?

Leah: Please.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. So Tim. Tim. Tim Steiner. He's a guy, and basically he had his back tattooed by a famous artist. And then that tattoo was sold to a German art collector. And when Tim dies, the tattoo will be framed and I guess hung on the wall of the German art collector's house. But while Tim is alive, his contract says he has to sit in galleries and display the art. And so I've seen Tim. I've seen Tim in person. He was, like, sitting in the galleries of this museum in Hobart, the Museum of Old and New Art. Great museum. And he just sits in the gallery all day. And I think he was there for, like, a year, you know, six hours a day. And he just sits on a plinth quietly, and you can look at his back, but it's like, dude in art gallery with tattoo. Yeah. Tim.

Leah: I have a myriad of feelings about that. Interesting.

Nick: [laughs] Right? And Tim says, like, it's not performance art. He is not the artwork. It's just the tattoo on his back. But I mean, come on. It's a little performance arty.

Leah: I'm just the canvas. Is that what he's saying?

Nick: Yeah, that's kind of the idea. Yeah. And when the museum was closed for COVID, Tim still showed up. He showed up every day. And they had, like, a live webcam where you could, like, watch it on the internet. But, yeah, he just, like, sat there.

Leah: I think Tim would be an interesting study of a human being. What kind of a person is like, "Yeah, you can have my back after I die."

Nick: Yeah. Oh, I'll post some links in the show notes to some videos with Tim. Yeah, you can hear from Tim about how he feels about all this. But I mean, the stamina to, like, just sit quietly in a museum.

Leah: Oh, exactly. You have to be a person who's able to just show up and sit.

Nick: Six hours a day? Wild.

Leah: Wild.

Nick: But yes, he is inviting you to look at his tattoo, for sure.

Leah: Yeah, some people want to share. They have got this beautiful art they had. They spent a long time sitting there with it, getting it. They spent a lot of money on it. And then some people don't so much. And I think you can figure that out within the first couple of seconds.

Nick: Okay, so see if they're a Tim or if they're not a Tim. I guess that's the question.

Leah: Are they a Tim or not a Tim? That's a great ...

Nick: That's the way to do it. Okay. So our next question is quote, "I have a Christmas card conundrum. Each year I order Christmas cards online, personalized with a photo of my son, husband and myself during some adventure we've had that year. I usually only send them out to our close friends and family because they're a little pricey. But this year, the online supplier accidentally sent us double our order and only charged us for one set of cards. So I was thinking it would be lovely to now send these extra cards to more folks—those seated towards the back of our theater, if you will. But what about next year when we go back to our normal number of cards? Would it actually be rude to send someone a Christmas card just this one time? I'd hate to throw the extra cards away, but now I'm considering it. Hope you'll have some good ideas because I don't want to end up on Santa's etiquette naughty list."

Leah: I'm gonna start this off by saying I sent out a big round of Christmas cards, I think, like, five years ago.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: I don't think I've sent out any but, like, two or three after that. Or no, it wasn't five years ago because we talked about it on the show. Well, we've been doing this for five years. Nick!

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, it's been a while, Leah. Yeah, it's been a while.

Leah: Is that real?

Nick: That's real, Leah. It's real and it's spectacular.

Leah: Really goes against my fear of commitment. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, said the woman who's been engaged for 18 years? For example.

Leah: [laughs] For example, I—what? No. At some point, at some time is fluid. I sent out a bunch.

Nick: Okay. There was some time in your past when you send out a lot, and then since then, none.

Leah: No. Maybe ...

Nick: Right.

Leah: When I see people, I get it. Maybe I got two or three out.

Nick: Right.

Leah: I don't think it matters.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, my thinking is send the cards. You got them.

Leah: Send it.

Nick: Send them. Yeah. And anybody you send a card to who is the type of person that's gonna clock that they didn't get a card the following year, like those people? And those people exist. I am among those people. I would send you a card back. I'd be like, "Oh, I'm on their list. So I'm gonna send them a card." And I think what you could do, anybody on this extra bonus list who sends you a card this year, well then, okay, you could put them on the list next year and it's not gonna be that many people. And so I think that would be the strategy. And so do that.

Leah: That's a solid strategy. Those on the list who send you a card back get added to the list.

Nick: Right. Yes.

Leah: It'll be delightful. And also that's a little extra time you get to spend with your candle burning and your Christmas carols playing and smell of cookies on the—that are surely baking in the oven. [laughs]

Nick: Oh, surely they're baking in the oven. Yes. Yes. Who can just send Christmas cards without all this pageantry?

Leah: There must be pageantry. There's lights twinkling.

Nick: Do you already have your lights up, or do you still have your lights up from last year? Leah is currently looking around her house right now to see if they're still up. [laughs]

Leah: I have lights in an area that I never take down. I do change the color out depending on the season.

Nick: Oh, interesting. Okay.

Leah: Because I like to have twinkling lights.

Nick: Okay. So we have the holiday twinkling lights. We have the carnival twinkling lights.

Leah: I have Halloween twinkling lights. I have summer twinkling lights. I have ...

Nick: Bastille Day.

Leah: I do not have that yet. But if you want to suggest ...

Nick: I suggest.

Leah: I do want to say I've been doing The Artist's Way, the book, which I'm pushing on Nick. And, you know, you have to fill out all these things that are like, "What did you want to do when you were younger?" And like, you know, "What are fun things for you to do?" And one of the things I came up with, which has been in my noggin previously, was like, I would love to run an inn that's decorated for Christmas. Yeah, I wish you guys at home could just see how Nick's face just fell. He literally went, "Ugh!" That was decorated for Christmas all year long.

Nick: Does this not exist?

Leah: All year long.

Nick: Does this not exist?

Leah: But it wouldn't be—it would be my inn.

Nick: Oh, I see.

Leah: And there would be, like, a few farm animals in the back that I rescued from a sanctuary. Like, maybe one moose. One moose? Did I just say that? Maybe one cow. You know, just a few.

Nick: Casual.

Leah: And then Dustin said to me, "But what about the people that come to the inn? What if they're mean people?" And I said, "You know what? It will only be available to Were You Raised By Wolves? listeners.

Nick: Okay. Although honestly, who is the mean person that is going out of their way to stay at the Christmas Inn in July? I mean, honestly.

Leah: No, I would be really shocked if somebody wants to come to the Christmas Inn and visit my cow Betsy and you're mean, I would be really shocked.

Nick: Yeah. And of course at your inn you can wear your bathrobe to breakfast.

Leah: Well, there will be a sign on the door that says "Bathrobes Welcome."

Nick: [laughs] So thank you for these great questions. And Leah, I hope you achieve your dreams.

Leah: Well, I think that you may want to be a part of it. So ...

Nick: I want to co-own this with you?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Oh, I'm not sure if that's true.

Leah: I think that we could do special holiday podcasts from the kitchen.

Nick: Uh-huh. Wow. Okay, I—uh-huh. Well, okay. [laughs] All right, we'll put it on the whiteboard.

Leah: I love how we're each trying to change each other's lives.

Nick: Yeah, it's not going so well, is it? [laughs]

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Our influence is relatively limited.

Leah: Mine with you is like "Slippers! Farm animals! Christmas inn!"

N" And with you, I—what am I trying to make you? I'm not trying to change you at all.

Leah: Oh, stop lying!

Nick: [laughs] Although actually nothing comes to mind immediately. Maybe it's just a constant stream that I actually can't think of anything specific. [laughs]

Leah: It's just a constant stream.

Nick: Well, great. So you out there, if you want me to change your life too, let us know. Send us your questions, and you can send them to our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or send us a voicemail or leave us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or Repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm in this really weird place in my life.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Where I'll get worked up in the moment about something, but then it just doesn't bother me so much anymore.

Nick: Oh, that's growth.

Leah: I'll just be like, is that really something that I want to take home in my brain? No.

Nick: But I mean, that doesn't help us in our show, though.

Leah: It does—it's also not good for my comedy either. Let me tell you that.

Nick: Right? So being happy in your personal life is bad for your professional life.

Leah: Really ruining it.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And also, I'm getting so good at apologizing immediately when I ...

Nick: Why are you developing the skill again?

Leah: So I ...

Nick: We need you to do bad things.

Leah: Well, I did do a bad thing. I've already apologized for it, but I felt like I would just share my repents.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Because I feel like this one would particularly mortify Nicholas Leighton, so ...

Nick: Oh! Okay. Bring it.

Leah: This would be a federal crime. And egregious in tone.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: I was meeting a friend who is always late.

Nick: All right. And we're still friends with this person?

Leah: Yeah, it's one of their qualities. They're always late. They know it. I know it. Great friend. We're going to a thing. I said, "Do not be late. Let's meet early."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: "So you're not late."

Nick: Okay. I mean, you know, as a strategy that does not work with laypeople.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I was late.

Nick: You were late?

Leah: Yes. [laughs]

Nick: Oh! Oh, no! Why were you late?

Leah: I just wasn't ready on time.

Nick: How late were you?

Leah: I was late.

Nick: Late?

Leah: I texted them, and I said, "Why don't you go ahead? I'm late."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And then ...

Nick: Wow.

Leah: ... I wanted to get to the event on time still. I said, "I'll meet you out front." I sprinted. I ran multiple blocks at full ...

Nick: Wow.

Leah: Full speed. Yeah.

Nick: Get your cardio in. And so did you make it to the venue on time for the thing?

Leah: Yes, I did. I made it to the venue on time to the thing.

Nick: Hmm.

Leah: And then I texted as—I got hit with a light, and I texted, "This is so mortifying. I know I told you to be early, and then I'm late. Throwing myself at your feet." And then when I got there, multiple apologies. And then I thought, Nick would hate this. And ...

Nick: Yeah. Why were you late?

Leah: We just had—we were just out later with the dogs than I thought we were gonna be. And then I had to shower. It was a—I thought I could just go but I couldn't.

Nick: Okay. All right. So just life—life happened.

Leah: It was just life happened.

Nick: Just poor planning.

Leah: It was just bad planning.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Leah: Just had a lot of things happening at once. I'm getting a little tired. Everything is getting a little—I'm trying to get, you know—and then, I made an oops.

Nick: But yeah, it is sort of unfortunate that you were late with a person that is always late, because now you've given them a free pass in the future.

Leah: Well, it's—what's most embarrassing is how I really hammered it in. I brought it up multiple times.

Nick: About how they shouldn't be late.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then I was late. Like, what is that? It's mortifying. There's no excuse. And I apologize multiple times. They were fine with it. They're like, "Whatever, I'm always late." And I go, "No, I know!"

Nick: Yeah. No, the irony is not lost.

Leah: But I think they would prefer I showed up clean, let me tell you that.

Nick: Yeah. And I guess you did show up to the actual event on time. So we made it to the whatever. Okay.

Leah: It's just that I was gonna force everybody to be early.

Nick: And turns out you were the one that needed that. Yeah.

Leah: So, I mean, I—that is—I'm repenting. That was embarrassing.

Nick: All right.

Leah: Next time, I will get the dogs out a little bit earlier. And my fault.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Or I will go to bed earlier so I don't need to sleep in so late.

Nick: Really cascading.

Leah: Really cascades. You get one—one thing comes out of line, and it's just ...

Nick: Yeah, your life is dominant.

Leah: You're sprinting down Hollywood Boulevard at full speed, yelling apologies to people.

Nick: Typical Hollywood Boulevard.

Leah: [laughs] So yeah, it wasn't—I wasn't the weirdest thing happening on that block.

Nick: [laughs] Definitely not. Yeah, if you were doing it while you were wearing a dirty Elmo suit, then okay.

Leah: No. Then I really would have fit in.

Nick: [laughs] So for me, I would like to vent. And so we all know that you should dispose of your chewing gum properly. Right? We all know this. And so, like, Leah, is it okay to spit your gum on the ground?

Leah: That would be a no.

Nick: No. That's a no. How about stick it under a desk?

Leah: Hard no.

Nick: And so yes, we know we should put it in the garbage. But I guess we need a little more instruction, because this week, three separate occasions, I have seen people put their gum in the garbage. But the way it got in the garbage is that they spat it from their mouth into the garbage.

Leah: [laughs] No they didn't.

Nick: And I—you know, no. That's not what we're doing. No, that's not how we dispose of gum.

Leah: No.

Nick: No. Yes. I mean, they launched it from their mouths. I mean, that requires a fairly high level of understanding of trajectories and projectile motion and parabolic paths. And even if you are successful—and two of the three were successful, the third did not make it in. But even if you are successful, like I don't want to see you spitting gum in the air. Like, I don't want that.

Leah: Did the third person pick it up and put it in the trash can?

Nick: What do you think, Leah?

Leah: I think no.

Nick: No. No is the answer. And there are times where if I see somebody littering, like somebody drops something right in front of me and I walk past it, many times in New York City, if it's not, like, gross and dirty, I'll pick it up and I'll put it in the trash. I'm not gonna get involved with gum.

Leah: Yeah. Not at all.

Nick: Not gonna get involved with gum. No, let's not. So can we not? Can we just not? Can we just agree? No.

Leah: I thought we'd already agreed that we weren't doing that.

Nick: I mean, I thought so too, but apparently there are things that need to be said out there, and so I'm just—I'm on the record. I'm saying.

Leah: I'm already pretty loosey goosey, and I thought we'd agreed that we weren't doing that.

Nick: Yeah. So I guess I'm just reminding everyone. Maybe it's a reminder.

Leah: I don't even put gum directly into the trash. I always put it into a piece of paper or tissue, because otherwise it's gonna stick on the side unless there's a bag. The person's never gonna be able to get it out.

Nick: Yeah. So I think if you want to be a gum chewer, if that's your thing, if you want to basically be chewing flavored plastic, because that's what that is, then I think we have to be responsible. You know, with privilege comes responsibility. So you are responsible for disposing of it properly.

Leah: I will say this, even though I caught the comment that you non-discreetly threw out about plastic. I took a break from gum for a while.

Nick: Oh yeah, how's that going?

Leah: I'm back in it. I mean, it was almost, like, two years. I'm back on. I forgot how much I loved it. What a good time.

Nick: I mean, isn't it just like polyvinyl acetate? I mean, isn't a lot of gum just, like, basically Elmer's glue?

Leah: I don't know, Nick.

Nick: But how fun!

Leah: If that's what Elmer's glue tastes like, I'll chew that, too. [laughs]

Nick: Okay, but when you dispose of it, just do it properly. Let's not be spitting our gum in the air.

Leah: My guess is that people don't want to touch it with their fingers because it's sticky.

Nick: Is that what it is?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: No, gum's not sticky. It's all saliva-y.

Leah: It's sticky! What if they hung their head over the trash and they opened their mouth and it just fell out? Would you feel better about that? I wish—if there was one episode that we could do Nick's facial expressions, it would be this one. He literally just looked like—his eye—one of his eyes rolled back and then he did like a "Ugh!"

Nick: Yeah. No, there's been a lot of disgust and disbelief in this episode. Yeah, I don't want you leaning over a garbage can and oopsing a piece of gum out of your mouth. I don't want that. I mean, the rule is the way it goes into your mouth is the way it comes out. So you put the gum in your mouth with your fingers, and so that's the way it needs to come out. Etiquette rules again.

Leah: I'm doing it.

Nick: Yeah. No, you're not the problem.

Leah: I'm just seeing if there was a loophole.

Nick: You're not the problem, Leah. No. This is about other people. So other people? Cut it out.

Leah: Cut it out! Fighting words!

Nick: [laughs] Oh, I mean it.

Leah: I know. I know.

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned the seven rules of FBI hostage negotiation. I will say I would have guessed about four of those, just, you know, having gone through life. But I loved it.

Nick: And I learned about moop. Matter out of place.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Yeah. No. This is why I don't like glitter, people, because it is matter out of place.

Leah: You could scream that at the gum people! Moop!

Nick: Oh! Finally I got something to say now. I'm sure people really want somebody yelling "Moop" at them on the street in New York City.

Leah: Well, that's what they get.

Nick: That's what they get. Yeah. What I've been forced to do. "Moop!"

Leah: You made me do it.

Nick: You made me moop.

Leah: You made me moop you.

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks you out there for listening. I'd send a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want you to seriously consider joining us on Patreon. Seriously people, join us on Patreon. For just $0.17 a day, you can adopt an etiquette podcast. [singing] In the arms of an angel.

Leah: Oh, I'm not allowed to sing, but you're allowed to sing? Hurtful.

Nick: [laughs] But that's way less than a cup of coffee. And isn't a cup of coffee like the bar? Right? Isn't that always, like, the metric?

Leah: I don't even know how that became the bar. Like, what a weird thing to make that as the bar.

Nick: I mean, in New York City a cup of coffee could be like 20 bucks now.

Leah: It's out of control.

Nick: Right. But for 17 cents a day, you can join us and support our show on Patreon. And we have lots of fun stuff there—bonus content, videos. And so please go to our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, select "Monthly Membership," and see if this is something you'd like to do.

Leah: We would love it if you'd join us.

Nick: We would. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So speaking of Burning Man, I would like to send a Cordials of Kindness out to Dustin because, you know, it was my first time going to Burning Man, and I didn't know what stuff to bring and I had extra stuff, and so he drove me to Reno.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: Drove back, and then drove back and got me at the end.

Nick: Oh, that's a lot of trips to Reno.

Leah: Yeah. With a dog. So I could spend every second that I had before leaving him with the dog. So I really appreciate that.

Nick: He's a keeper.

Leah: He's a keeper.

Nick: And for me, I want to say thank you to William Hanson. So William is the UK's, like, number one etiquette authority. If you have a question about etiquette in the UK, like, he is your phone call. And he just wrote a new book called Just Good Manners, and he actually gave us a shout out in his new book. So on page 262, turn to it, he actually quotes us, and we are part of his book. And it's actually very nice to be included in this new book. So thank you, William, for including us. Made us feel very special.

Leah: That's so lovely!

Nick: Very lovely. So thank you.

Leah: Thank you.