Spitting Watermelon Seeds, Behaving While Bowling, Throwing Spoons on Airplanes, and More

Nick: Do you spit out your watermelon seeds? Do you get your bowling balls greasy? Do you send invoices to your wedding guests? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So for today's amuse bouche, I want to talk about watermelon.

Leah: I carried a watermelon.

Nick: You carried a watermelon?

Leah: Stop it, Nick! You have to know this iconic line!

Nick: What is that from?

Leah: Dirty Dancing.

Nick: Okay. Okay. I mean, it did not readily come to mind.

Leah: I think it's just—it's the quintessential scene in the beginning, where she shows up at the party and she's sort of like, you know, uncomfortable and all these people, and they know how to socialize. And she's trying to be cool, and she's like—he's like, "How are you here?" And she's like, "I carried a watermelon." And I've never in my life more related.

Nick: Okay. All right. I guess for me, it's the end scene that really does it.

Leah: Yeah. For some people, the end scene with the jumping up really does it.

Nick: Yeah. That's iconic.

Leah: For me, it's the watermelon carry.

Nick: Okay. All right. Well, so you are familiar with watermelon.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: How do you feel about eating watermelon? Is this one of your preferred melons?

Leah: You know, I love a watermelon?

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I just, for some reason, always go to a cantaloupe or a honeydew first.

Nick: Okay. Not a go to. Fair enough.

Leah: It's very summer, though. I think it's very summer.

Nick: Oh, for sure. And it's a very informal food. I am so tired of etiquette videos—I see a lot of etiquette videos on my Instagram feed—and it's a lot of etiquette experts eating very informal foods in a formal way. And it's kind of like, what dinner party are we at, people, where we are being served whole bananas? What dinner party is this? Why are we eating a banana with a knife and fork? How often is this coming up? And so, like, what formal dinner party are we at where we're eating a wedge of watermelon? Like, is this happening? No, this is not happening. It's an informal food. But if it is gonna be served formally—and there is a world in which you can do it—like, Amy Vanderbilt, she prefers that it's served cubed and in white wine.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And so, you know, you can make it elevated. And if you do do it that way, then actually you would use a spoon. A spoon is the proper implement when it's, like, in a compote. But we are informally eating watermelon. We are sitting down, we have a wedge of watermelon, and now it's on a plate. And so the question is: how do you get this wedge of watermelon into your face? And what do we do about the seeds?

Leah: Well, I pizza it. I pick it up like it's a slice of pizza. I guess some people fold a pizza. I don't fold pizza.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I don't want to eat something in half the time, you know?

Nick: Well, you're not gonna fold a wedge of watermelon.

Leah: That's what I'm saying. I'm not— A) I can't. B) I wouldn't. In that order. So I take both sides, you know?

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Obviously, they can't see this at home, so ...

Nick: Well, Leah is picking up a wedge of watermelon like a human would. [laughs]

Leah: Like a human would. I just want people at home to know that I'm actually picking it up like a human would. That's the ...

Nick: Right. Yes. Okay.

Leah: And then I'm moving it to my face.

Nick: Yep. Okay. Correct direction.

Leah: And I'm gonna say, to be honest, what I usually do, like, outside of whether this is correct or not, but just what I have been doing?

Nick: Hmm?

Leah: Say I pick up my white of watermelon. A lot of the seeds are already—they're sticking out. They're at the top. They're—I mean, at the top of the skin. And I just flick them off before it even comes to my mouth onto the plate.

Nick: You're flicking them off with what?

Leah: Obviously, my wand.

Nick: A-ha! [laughs]

Leah: My finger.

Nick: Okay. Okay, so this is the Leah Bonnema approach. Interesting.

Leah: So usually I get most of them out before they're even in my mouth.

Nick: Okay. And then let's say a watermelon seed makes it into your mouth. Then what?

Leah: That's what I'm trying to remember.

Nick: I mean, if you swallow it, then a watermelon will grow in your stomach.

Leah: Obviously, I'm not swallowing it because I would spend a lot of time on Google being like, "How long before the watermelon tree grows?" [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I assume we're gonna be told to spit it on our fork. But no, it's how it came into your mouth, goes out onto your plate.

Nick: Oh, my goodness! What is that knowledge bomb that just got dropped?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Wow! Leah Bonnema paying attention, pulling something from the archives, dropping it elegantly in the conversation in context? I mean, okay! All right. [laughs] So—okay, so we are going to remove the watermelon seed with our fingers then, in this.

Leah: I'll just do a little one of these.

Nick: This is Leah spitting it into her fingers.

Leah: Spitting is a strong word because it's more like falling delicately.

Nick: It's sort of an ootz, I think.

Leah: It's an ootz. I've ootzed it out of my mouth into my hand. And then I'll just ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... very casually, not making an announcement. Put it on my plate.

Nick: Okay. All right. So I think we're kind of onto something here. I was looking into what all the etiquette greats had to say about this. And I was reading one book from the '50s, and it has a section that's called "How to Cope with Watermelon."

Leah: How to cope with watermelon? [laughs]

Nick: How to cope. [laughs] And I love that phrasing. It's like, "Oh, how do we cope with this?" OG Emily Post, 1922 Emily Post, she actually does not weigh in on watermelon eating. The only references she has to watermelon is that she thinks it's "The perfect shade of pink for your curtains in the dining room."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so she thinks that's great. Or she says, "If you have limited income, a watermelon pink fan is a nice thing to carry around."

Leah: [laughs] I feel like when I'm on my most limited income, my first thought is what I'm worried about is popping a color in this room.

Nick: Right. And for Emily, pink would be the right color. Yeah. But subsequent editions of the Emily Post guide, 1960, she says quote, "Watermelon is cut into large-sized pieces or slices, and usually eaten with a knife and fork. Or if with a fork alone, you remove the seeds with the tines, and then cut piece with side of fork." And so she's suggesting that we will scrape the seeds with the tines of the fork first before putting it in our mouth. And so, okay. But interestingly, later on in the decade, 1969 edition of Emily Post, she has changed her mind. She says quote, "Watermelon is cut into large-size pieces or slices and usually eaten in the fingers." So huh! Okay, so we have changed our mind. We are now—it's a finger food.

Leah: We're now into modernity.

Nick: Is that what it is? Now Amy Vanderbilt, she is suggesting that you just take a bite of the watermelon, just put it in your mouth, and when there are seeds, you will clean the seeds in your mouth and they will be quote, "Dropped into the cupped hand and placed on the side of the plate entirely dry." So she kind of agrees with this ootz approach that you recommend.

Leah: I love it.

Nick: And I think we still want to actually remove it with the fingers, even if we are using a knife and fork, because I think we do get a better grip on the watermelon seed.

Leah: They are slippery.

Nick: It can be slippery. And I think putting it back on the fork, I don't know if that's actually more elegant. So I do think the idea of, like, just ootzing it into the hand, we could also cup our mouth as we're doing this, I don't have to necessarily see the seed exit your mouth. You know, we can kind of shield the public from view. I think that's allowed. So I would recommend that.

Leah: And then, of course, if you are eating, you're just carrying watermelon as a snack on, like, a hike, because it's—I think you could just—you know, I have seen people just do, like a one two spit out into the woods.

Nick: Oh! Mm-hmm.

Leah: And how athletic.

Nick: Well, funny you should mention it. So let's close it out with Miss Manners, because she has two options. One is gonna be the option that she calls the 'informal option.' So she recommends that you scrape the seeds away with the knife—not a fork—and quote, "Resist the temptation to spit the seeds across the table." So that's the informal option. Scrape seeds away with the knife and resist the temptation to spit. However, she offers the 'highly informal option.'

Leah: Whoo!

Nick: Which is quote, "Put face into watermelon and see who can spit the seeds the farthest."

Leah: I love this option!

Nick: So the highly informal option, I guess this is what we would use on said hike. Who can spit the farthest?

Leah: I also love that you put your face into the watermelon. That's really—you're barely taking a bite at this point. You're actually sticking your whole face into the watermelon.

Nick: That is a direct quote. "Put face into watermelon." Yes. That is the instruction from Judith Martin.

Leah: I love this one.

Nick: She gives you permission.

Leah: It is fun to spit a watermelon seed. Let's not lie.

Nick: Now interestingly, nobody is concerned about drips or juice. Everybody's only concerned about the seeds. And it's sort of like the juice, the sticky fingers. Like, are we not concerned about this? Nobody talks about this.

Leah: Or holding the rind. It's gonna run down your chin, and then you're just gonna look like you're a part of summer.

Nick: I mean, the rind is sticky, too. I mean, I think we need finger bowls. I think this is when we have finger bowls. No?

Leah: Summer snacks for children.

Nick: And children should have finger bowls.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yes, I think that'd be very nice.

Leah: This is when you wash your hands off with a hose, and then you put your thumb over it, and then you spray your friends.

Nick: Yeah. No, you just go down the slip and slide and that'll clean it off. So that's watermelon.

Leah: Delicious! Refreshing!

Nick: And gets you into parties if you're Jennifer Grey.

Leah: Yes! Yes!

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and down the lanes.

Nick: That's true. So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about bowling.

Leah: Bowling!

Nick: I mean, bowling's great. Do you do it often?

Leah: I'm sort of shocked we haven't talked about it yet, to be honest. When you ...

Nick: I mean, you know, we're gonna get to everything eventually.

Leah: I know, but I was like, "How have we not done—" because bowling is like such an outing that has ...

Nick: Yes.

Leah: You know, it's very sort of different than other outings.

Nick: Well, a lot of people actually feel like bowling is so casual, like, "Oh, surely etiquette doesn't apply. This is just like a casual thing." And it's like, "Oh, no, no. Oh, there's a lot of etiquette involved with bowling."

Leah: There really is.

Nick: Oh, tremendous. Now I don't bowl often because in New York City, it's a billion dollars.

Leah: It is a billion dollars to go bowling in New York City.

Nick: I mean, it is shockingly expensive how—I mean, it's several hundred dollars for an evening of bowling. And so it is not a cheap activity, but I do enjoy it.

Leah: It shouldn't even be called bowling anymore. It's like a whole other ...

Nick: Yeah, it should be called ...

Leah: "Rolling money."

Nick: That's right. [laughs] But it is super fun, and so there's a lot to say. So what's on your list? Kick it off.

Leah: Well, this is never related to anything except bowling, but not etiquette. Bowling lanes often have very fun signs that incorporate a lot of fun bowling puns.

Nick: There's a lot of puns in bowling.

Leah: There's so many puns. And so, you know, I'm in from the beginning. And there was a great one. If you're ever driving through South Paris, Maine, on Route 26, they always have one that every time you go by, you go—you read it in your mind, and then out loud you go, "Ah! So good!"

Nick: Which is what?

Leah: It's different every time.

Nick: Oh, they change it? Oh, they spice it up.

Leah: They change it.

Nick: Oh, okay. So somebody's really ...

Leah: Somebody in there is just banging out puns like nobody's business.

Nick: So that's one of the perks, I guess, if you think puns are perks.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so ...

Leah: Which we do!

Nick: So I think the first thing to note is that bowling is a group activity. There are people you're bowling with, and then there's also other people in the bowling alley. Because unless you have your own private bowling alley, you are probably gonna be around other people.

Leah: So what Nick is saying is even if you're bowling alone, it's still a group activity because there are other people there.

Nick: Also, very often, bowling is a family-friendly activity.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: You are probably gonna be around people from different ages and sensibilities. So I think we just wanna have that in mind, like, for our own behavior, but also, like, the names that we choose to put in the scoreboard that are broadcast above every lane.

Leah: I never thought about that.

Nick: For all to see. You know, I love a good nickname, love a good pun but, like, let's keep it—you know, let's try and keep it a little PG if possible.

Leah: You're literally right next to people.

Nick: You are literally right next to each other.

Leah: I would say starting, though, when you walk in, shoes is the first thing.

Nick: You gotta wear them. Yeah. You can't wear your street shoes.

Leah: You have to wear—unless you have your own bowling shoes. And then you're already professional.

Nick: Because you already know how to bowl. Right.

Leah: You're gonna be taking your shoes off because they don't want your shoes—if you're unfamiliar with bowling, the flooring is going to change from where you walk in to where you switch over to the lanes. And they don't ...

Nick: It's different surfaces.

Leah: It's a different surface. And that service is significantly more slippery. And they are not gonna want your shoes on that surface.

Nick: Yes. You gotta wear bowling shoes. This is very important. And you also need a bowling ball. And so unless you brought your own, there are gonna be balls there for you to choose, and they're gonna be at different weights. And you probably don't need 90,000 bowling balls. And so it is a pet peeve of bowlers who bowl often that people hog all the balls.

Leah: Well, the last two bowling places I went to, each lane, which has two groups, one on each side of it ...

Nick: Right.

Leah: No. I mean, so there's two lanes, but in the middle there's like—you know, for those unfamiliar, you roll the ball down, it hits the pins or doesn't hit the pins, and then the ball comes back around. So where the ball pops up, that was shared between two groups of people, and it had a whole lot of balls. So I think in other places, you take the balls from the front. This place had different balls for every group or every two groups. So you could use as many balls as you wanted.

Nick: Okay. I mean, whatever the ball rules are, I guess. But just be mindful that, like, it's a shared resource, so we don't necessarily want to be hogging this resource.

Leah: Well, this was interesting because we were sharing it with the couple on the next one, and then me and the guy kept going for the same ball, so then we would realize—I'd be like, "Oh, no. You go." You know, so you are sharing. Either you take it from the front or you're sharing with the people next to you.

Nick: Yes. And I think we don't want to necessarily steal other people's balls. So if you're in a ball situation where, like, oh, this was the ball I'm using, I think we want to avoid taking somebody else's ball without permission.

Leah: Yeah. Just be aware of balls.

Nick: And so related to that? Lane courtesy, I think this might be, like, one of the top issues, pet peeves of professional bowlers, that when you are about to bowl, you are in an area that's called 'the approach.' And when you are in the bowling approach, you want to be mindful. Is anybody else in the bowling approach? Because a lot of people are distracted if you are bowling while they're about to bowl and they can see you out of the corner of their eye. And so you want to make sure that when you step up and you're on the approach, you basically don't dawdle, bowl, and then get out of the approach, return to your seat, and that way somebody else can bowl. And there's this thing called 'lane courtesy' and 'right of way,' which is you let the person to your right bowl first if they were there first, and then you bowl. So it's important not to bowl at the exact same time as, like, the person in the next lane.

Leah: Yes. You sort of have an unspoken relationship with the person in the next lane, the whole group. You guys are sort of working in tandem.

Nick: Yeah. And we just don't want to hold people up. And you should get ready and you should, like, do whatever pre ritual you have but, like, don't hold everybody up because, like, people can't bowl until you bowl.

Leah: I was bowling, and the group to the right of us was a couple on a seemingly new-ish date. Like, they were a recent couple, and they just selfied, selfied, selfied on the bowling. Like, they were out into the approach. It was just like a selfie party.

Nick: Yeah. So that's rude because people would not want to be bowling while somebody else is on the approach in the next lane.

Leah: It really just made me—I was like, this is a whole new thing going on here.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, we wish them well. but ...

Leah: I did. I was nice through the whole thing. It was very funny. I was like, "You guys actually seem perfect for each other." To be honest, you're perfect for each other."

Nick: But if you want to take selfies, that's great. But just like, step back. You know, don't be on the approach because that's distracting for other people. And you also want to be mindful that a lot of people, after they bowl, they migrate. They kind of wander into maybe somebody else's lane, and so don't do that.

Leah: Also, sometimes balls fly where they're not supposed to go. If it's a new person bowling, sometimes they drop it backwards.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Or it goes too high in the air and then clunks down. So just, you know, heads up.

Nick: Literally. Yeah! No, that's for safety you want to give people space. Related to that, if we're gonna be touching bowling balls, let's make sure our hands are clean. Bowling alley food, sort of ironically, is often very greasy and is finger food. [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] Yes, it is.

Nick: Like, this is—you know, it would be—it would actually make so much more sense if bowling alleys only featured, like, chopstick food, you know? Like, it was only—we only do sushi in bowling. But no, it's always like, french fries and mozzarella sticks and chicken fingers. And it's sort of like, oh, these are all greasy finger foods. And then I'm gonna take my greasy hands and then touch a bowling ball, which makes it easier to lose control of a ball.

Leah: It really does.

Nick: Because it's just like, "Oh, my fingers have slipped." So I think it's a courtesy to everybody around you and the other people who might want to be using that ball at some point in the future, let's try to have clean hands. And if we're gonna eat food, let's wash our hands before we bowl. And then lastly, I think we just want to clean up after ourselves. I think we want to make sure that we return our shoes properly. We want to make sure we return the balls if that's what's happening. We want to make sure we clean up our garbage and, you know, there's going to be garbage. Let's, like, leave the area nice and tidy.

Leah: Lovely!

Nick: Right? I mean, how hard is that? And I guess, is it like shopping carts? Returning the bowling ball? I feel like it is a courtesy to return the bowling ball.

Leah: Well obviously, you and I have been in very different bowling alleys, because the ones that I've always been in, the balls pop up in between you. You just leave them in the rack in between the two.

Nick: But what if you want, like, different weights? You're like, "Oh, I really want a 16-pound ball." And, like, it's—you'd have to take it from some other lane?

Leah: No, in the rack. So the lane you share has everything.

Nick: Oh, my goodness! I mean, what luxury! Oh yeah, that's not my experience with bowling alleys here. There's just, like, all the big racks at the back of the room, and then you have to, like, pick your ball and carry it to your lane.

Leah: Then I would absolutely return it.

Nick: Yes. I know. I'd need an intern for that.

Leah: "I'm Nick. I'm going bowling. This is my intern."

Nick: I need a caddy. That's what I need.

Leah: "This is my bowling caddy."

Nick: [laughs] But bowling is super fun, and my goal is to always get double my age as my score. I'm not a very good bowler, so as long as I could do double my age, I feel like that's a good night for me.

Leah: Mmm.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Yep. So it's a very low bar, but it keeps it fun.

Leah: I don't even pay attention to the scoring at all. I just—when it's my turn, I just like to roll it. And then, as you said, I try to will it with my mind to move back to where it should be. And then I usually do a "Aww!" And then I just clap for the next person.

Nick: I mean, that's all you need. And Leah, I'm a little disappointed that we got through this whole thing and there was not one bowling pun from you.

Leah: Well, what I'm doing is now I'm withholding. I'm withholding puns.

Nick: Oh! Oh, I see.

Leah: So you will see how much you miss them.

Nick: I mean, actually, this is a surprisingly effective strategy. Because I did notice.

Leah: Because you did—not only did you notice, but you brought it up as if asking me for a pun.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So ...

Nick: Wow. Wow.

Leah: Hello.

Nick: What I think is a little scary is that you have figured out my psychology, and you've figured out how to get what you want out of me in a very sneaky way. And I don't know how I feel about that manipulation.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] On some level I'm honored that you're paying attention. On another level, I'm a little concerned that now you have this power and I don't know what you're gonna do with it.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So now I'm a little worried. So that's gonna be fun for me.

Leah: Think about that!

Nick: [laughs] Oh, I will. Oh, I will.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I am quite taken aback by an etiquette crime in my life, and I'm not sure if there's anything I can say or do about it. I was recently involved with a very close best friend's courthouse wedding. I was one of two witnesses, and after the wedding, they invited us two witnesses and two other friends, to dinner at an upscale restaurant. I was surprised by the restaurant choice because one of the newlyweds is quite tight on cash right now. Sure enough, once we got to the restaurant, they let the guests know that they would put everything on one card and expect folks to transfer them their share afterwards, including for their share of appetizers that they wanted for the entire table. I said okay in the moment so as to not embarrass or upset them on their special day, but I was quite disappointed. I just received a text from my friend with what the total cost would be, and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do here. I did give a substantial cash gift, and the newlyweds are in their 30s."

Leah: I mean, at this point, it's probably already gone by.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think that window is closed, so we just gotta pay it. But I could see why we're annoyed by this.

Leah: Oh, I absolutely see why. It really seems like when people are getting married, some sort of a thing happens.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then they expect—we step out of the world of reason.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I'm really monitoring my words here. And I mean—I mean, I'm obviously thinking about the thing where we show up. Our friend all of a sudden wants us to go to an island or take a boat and carry ice.

Nick: [laughs] And would you please bring everything?

Leah: Bring all the food. And, you know, that's obviously—but I mean, you're like, "We're getting married at a—we're getting married at the courthouse, and then we're gonna pick, like, the most expensive restaurant, and then we're gonna send you the bill?"

Nick: "Yeah, we're gonna invoice you." I mean, yeah, you were trapped. You were trapped.

Leah: This is entrapment. There's no way—there's no way you could handle this in the moment. You're not ready.

Nick: Yeah. How could you be? I mean, it is true, there is something interesting about weddings where for some people, they're so focused on the quote-unquote "correct" etiquette, like, this is the time when they actually, like, care about etiquette and the proper way to do the invitations and, like, oh, what is the correct way and order for the table? Like, on some level, they're so concerned about it, and then they forget about actually what etiquette's really about, which is like, oh, let's actually be hospitable and make sure everybody has a nice time and not extort them. And, like, there is this weird juxtaposition that happens with weddings where, like, on one hand, like, we're so concerned about etiquette, and then on the other hand, we totally forget about etiquette and it's like, what are we doing? But yes, why I think this is rude is that, generally speaking, when you are hosting, you are hosting. And it is a little unusual to make your guests pay for a wedding reception dinner, which is kind of what this is. So it is unusual for this to be the scenario.

Leah: 'Unusual' is a nice word, I—let's say, because I do want people on their wedding day to be able to have their dreams come true ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: ... let's say you wanted to get—you know, you're getting married at the courthouse, and then you want to go to this dinner place, but you want your group of friends to be there, but you can't pay for everybody to be there. I think in advance you would tell people—I'm just trotting this out. If this is what you wanted, I'm trying to find a way for this wedding, and then we'll deal with the other side of the question.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: You would say, "Hey, I know some of you are thinking of giving us a gift or a cash gift, or if you were thinking of giving us a gift, we'd rather you come out to dinner with us. And we can't—" I mean, I would be completely transparent. "We can't afford to pay for everybody. So join us, get your own dinner. Don't give us a gift."

Nick: Okay. I mean, I think that would be one way to handle it. I mean, I think the idea of oh, this dinner is happening and we're not paying for it, I think would need to be disclosed as part of the invitation so that we're not surprised by this invoice. Because it would be unusual to be like, "Oh, after we get married at the courthouse and we're gonna do this dinner, which is at a restaurant of our choosing and a time of our choosing and a guest list of our choosing, therefore, we are the hosts of this, for us to not then actually be the hosts and take care of the bill." Like, that's unusual. So when you divert from what is usual, then you want to let your potential guests know that there's been a diversion so that your guests can decide whether or not they want to get on board. Now obviously, if you were told all that, you would have said yes anyway, because you would say yes to these people. You can also be annoyed that, like, oh, they're choosing an expensive restaurant and sticking me with the bill, but at least you wouldn't be surprised, which I think the surprise here is the problem.

Leah: Yes, you could also give a less substantial cast gift.

Nick: Also that. Right. You would then have the ability to then have your budget adjusted accordingly. And it's a good reason to sometimes send the gift after the fact, you know? We don't always want to send the gift before the ceremony. You know, sometimes waiting a little while might be a good idea in case something like this happens. [laughs]

Leah: Not only, as Nick pointed out, are they choosing the restaurant and the time, they're also choosing the appetizers that you're going to pay for.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I'm actually less bothered by that aspect. I mean, I know it was flagged in the letter, but it's sort of like, did we not have part of the mozzarella sticks? I mean, did we not eat any of the appetizers ourselves?

Leah: Oh, I don't mind sharing appetizers. It's that we didn't choose. We didn't get to have any say in it. We had no say in it, and then we pay for it. We had no say in the restaurant.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess if you wanted to say something—I mean, what do you say? I think if you wanted to say something, the only thing I think you could potentially say as it's being disclosed to you that you will now be paying for it and we're gonna invoice you later, would be like, "Oh, I think I misunderstood the invitation and I didn't realize you weren't hosting. Yes, of course. Send me the payment request later." And at least that just sort of plants a seed of, like, "Oh, I misunderstood, but no problem." I don't know if you can really land that.

Leah: I mean, the other option is it's possible that you don't have the money to give a gift and then pay for an expensive dinner.

Nick: Right.

Leah: So if that happens in the moment, I think you're totally within your grounds to say, "Hey, I misunderstood. I don't have more in my budget after the gift I gave you, so I'm so glad I got to be here for the ceremony, but I have to go home."

Nick: Yeah, I think that actually wouldn't be unfair.

Leah: It's not unfair.

Nick: Or like, "I'll go to the dinner, but I can only have a salad. I won't be able to participate, you know, in all three courses. But I hope that's okay just to hang out with you guys for the afternoon.

Leah: Yeah, I think that if, you know—you're well within your—I mean, people just can't—we just can't be, like, open wallet, credit card draining because somebody brings in something new for their wedding.

Nick: Yeah. And I just want to also clarify, like, there's a lot of invitations that we have in our lives with casual friends, which is like, "Hey, Leah, do you want to grab dinner on Thursday?" And that conversation is not me taking you to dinner on Thursday. The nature of our relationship is like, oh, we'll probably just pay for our own dinners, but we'll hang out. And that's fine. You don't have the expectation, like, oh, I'm treating you to dinner, but it's like, "Hey, I'm getting married on Thursday, and we're doing dinner at this place afterwards, and so hope you're there." That then does read as oh, obviously I'm paying for this dinner.

Leah: Yes. It does read as that.

Nick: And so there is an important distinction, you know? Even if I am choosing the location and the guest list, like, there is some context that is required. But yeah, this is obviously unusual to stick your guests with the bill. So yeah, you're allowed to be annoyed. Etiquette crime.

Leah: And I don't even know what you would do after the fact and got the text.

Nick: After the fact? No, you just gotta pay it. Yeah, there's nothing to be said at that point. And you're just allowed to be privately resentful forever, and that's fine.

Leah: I mean, I guess you could really, really go in hard.

Nick: Oh, okay?

Leah: And go—I already know this is a no. I'm just throwing it out.

Nick: Yeah, yeah, whiteboard it.

Leah: So we can whiteboard it and then cross it right off and be like, "Hey, it was a little shocking that I thought, you know, from the invitation that we would be—in the moment, I sort of didn't process it. Can you use some of my cash gift towards this for my part? Thank you."

Nick: Oh! Hmm.

Leah: I mean, I can't imagine, but I mean, we can put that on the whiteboard.

Nick: I mean, yeah. I mean, I kind of—I like it in a lot of ways. It's real provocative.

Leah: It's provocative, but it's not unfair.

Nick: It is not unfair. It is direct. It is sort of polite. It's sort of calling out—yeah, I mean, okay. It's not a hard no. I think you'd have to know how that would be received by this person, because it feels like somebody who does this is not necessarily well versed in etiquette.

Leah: Somebody who does this isn't well versed in other people's feelings.

Nick: [laughs] Or didn't really think it through. Or thought that, "Oh, our wedding is so casual." I mean, that's maybe the explanation, that this courthouse thing was so casual. This was just to say, "Hey, we're just gonna do this bureaucratic thing. Would you pop by? We just need some extra signatures, and then we're gonna grab a bite." Like, unless it was so casual in their mind and it was that, maybe that's the explanation. Maybe that's ...

Leah: I think that's the explanation. A part of the explanation. They were like, "We're going real easy with this. Of course our friends want to pay for dinner."

Nick: "And of course they want to treat us."

Leah: "They want to treat us and pay for appetizers they didn't order. Maybe it just takes a second for them to turn around and look back at it.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, on some level, you want etiquette to be satisfying, and you want people to realize their mistakes and grow from it and become better people. We don't always get that, though. And I don't know if this is that opportunity. I do think in your relationship with these people, this will come up again, something like this. And I think there might be another teachable moment that will come up. And so I think maybe we'll use the next opportunity when they try to stick a bill. Like, "Hey, let's go out for dinner." And then you can be like, "Oh, that sounds great. Just want to clarify, like, are you treating, or is this a Dutch situation?"

Leah: "Are you treating? Is this a Dutch situation? Are you gonna order all the food and then tell me what I have to pay?"

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. As I said, that is probably not the way to go.

Leah: Very subtle.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, I mean, I guess you do kind of have to let this go and not actually be resentful forever.

Leah: Oh, you're gonna let somebody not be resentful forever, or are you gonna let them let it go and still be resentful forever?

Nick: I personally am very good at letting things go, but also noting things forever. So I'm not mad about it, but it is noted forever. And so I think if you can maybe hold that place, like, I'm not mad about it, but I remember.

Leah: Yeah, that's a nice place to hold, because you don't want to hold anger for too long.

Nick: No. No, and I don't want to be resentful or hold grudges. You know, that's for Erin Jackson.

Leah: She's so good. I also want to say that I think that's why we're here, because you put it out to us. We say we agree with you.

Nick: Totally.

Leah: And then you can be like, "I knew I was right!" And then we all collectively agree with you. We say, "What is going on?"

Nick: Yeah. So letter-writer, on your behalf, listening audience, join us on the count of three, I want everybody to say, "You were right." All right, ready?

Leah: [laughs] Yes.

Nick: One, two, three. You were right!

Leah: You were right! I love the idea that people right now are driving their cars. People are sitting at their table.

Nick: Everybody on a treadmill, people in airplanes. Yeah.

Leah: You were right!

Nick: You were right. You are allowed to be mad. So our next question is quote, "I do custom cabinetry, and a few weeks ago I was installing a project in a customer's home while they were there. Throughout the week-long install, the homeowner was constantly hovering nearby, chit chatting and checking in on me. He kept asking me, 'How are we doing? Do you need any help? Need an extra set of hands? Are you good? Are you happy?' He even requested to work and go to lunch with me. These seemingly kind and generous gestures quickly became menacing as I told him repeatedly that I was fine and I would let him know if I needed help. He really started to fry my nerves, and it came to a point where he said I seemed frustrated. He then even started following me around with a vacuum cleaner. I was trying to do complicated, detailed work, and his incessant talking kept distracting me. How do I tell someone I need some quiet time to do my work while in their home without offending them?"

Leah: Oh, I feel so stressed.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I felt so stressed when I read this the first time.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, we had that whole deep dive about how repetition can be super rude, when you, like, just pester people when they've already said no, and you just keep going at it. And so this is a great example of that.

Leah: I think the key—and I thought, "Oh, Nick's gonna have a great way to say this," is to basically—you have to say to them, "I need quiet space to do good work."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Like, I do my best work—you're doing detailing. It seems so clear to me that you would need space, but I think this person doesn't get it.

Nick: [laughs] No, not at all. And I think what is tricky here is that this is a business relationship, and so this is somebody who you're working for, who you want to have pay you. You want referrals from this person, and so it does feel a little more delicate. And so yeah, I can see why this feels tricky because, like, how do you set a boundary which is like, "Dude, back off. Like, it's cool. I'll let you know when I'm done. I'll let you know if I need anything."

Leah: But I think in that it is a business relationship, and they—it's their home, so they do, in their heart of hearts, want you to be doing your best work. And your best work is done when somebody's not standing over your shoulder.

Nick: Yeah. So I think the way I would handle this is, I think along what you said, which is like, convey this idea that, like, "Cabinetry to me is a form of meditation. And I like getting into this meditative state, and it's important for me to stay in this state to ensure that everything is proper and it all turns out beautifully." And you want to set some boundaries about how you can get into this meditative state and stay in this state. And you need that concentration and solitude. And it's not personal. It's about just getting the best, highest-quality product that will please everybody. And I guess you could add, like, "I'll check in with you at the end of each day so we can review what I've done, and then we could talk about the plan for the next day." So I think we can promise that, like, "Yes, I'm gonna check in with you. There will be accountability each day, but it's just gonna need to be at the end of the day."

Leah: I love that. Or even if they're—like, if they just can't make it that long, we can check in at lunch.

Nick: Lunchtime is great. Or maybe every three hours. Every two hours. Give me 90 minutes.

Leah: Yeah. Just be like, "I need to get into my flow." Like, I feel like there has to be a word that they understand, like, when you're in your best place, that's when you—like, I think about it when I'm writing. Like, if I get interrupted in the middle, it throws you out. You gotta start all over again.

Nick: Yeah. No, you gotta get in the zone.

Leah: You gotta get in the zone. There is the word.

Nick: Right. And I think if you just make it clear that, like, oh, this is about them and their cabinetry. This is in their best interest. It does sound like this homeowner doesn't trust you, though. It feels like there's a little of that flavor, which I don't love.

Leah: Well, I don't think it's that they don't trust this person, I think they probably don't either trust anybody.

Nick: Ah, yes. Yes. They've been burned in the past, and so they just feel like this level of hovering is required.

Leah: Or they are really into what you're doing, and they just sort of, like, want to be in your—what's it called?

Nick: Business?

Leah: But they want to be near you and, like, take it in and, like, they're sort of, I wouldn't say lonely, but they're like chatty Cathys and they just want to know all about it, and they want to do it and what are you doing? And, you know, it's so interesting. And then—but they don't get that that's disrupting your ability to work. Like, they just think they're being helpful and interested.

Nick: Yeah. And actually, I think they genuinely do like you. They wanted to have lunch with you.

Leah: They want to have lunch with you.

Nick: That's kind of interesting. Yeah. So I guess I would try to actually take this as flattering, this amount of tension as flattering. And try not to think of this as nefarious or malicious or menacing, and that this is somebody who's actually genuinely interested in you and what you do in your craft. And so maybe if we think about it in that way, it'll be less annoying. But I think we can set some boundaries.

Leah: That way when, as Nick said, you give them a time when you can meet up, they still get that. They still get that, "Ooh, I get to talk to them and learn about it," in whatever time. You're just spacing it out.

Nick: Or bear traps. Once again, it's a place for bear traps.

Leah: [laughs] What was the other one? We're gonna throw down, like, spikes or something?

Nick: [laughs] Oh, bear traps have come up.

Leah: More than once.

Nick: Yeah, we've electrified a lot of things. We put a lot of bear traps out there. Yeah. No, we've definitely created some aggressive hazards in quite a few scenarios. So maybe this is one of them. Electrify it.

Leah: It's your backup option.

Nick: Yeah, we're just gonna Home Alone it.

Leah: [laughs] What a visual!

Nick: So do you have questions for us about bear traps or Home Alone? Home Alone 2? Let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com, or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: [sighs]

Nick: Uh oh.

Leah: I'm gonna vent.

Nick: Oh, okay. [laughs]

Leah: This one is almost—it started out as a regular vent and then the end, the coup d'etat ...

Nick: Ooh!

Leah: ... it really takes a whole new level to the point where you're almost like, "I tip my hat to you."

Nick: Oh, well played! Okay, so what has happened?

Leah: Let me set the scene.

Nick: Oh, please!

Leah: So early weekend morning, we are taking the girls to a dog park. We're, you know, socializing Greta Mae, so it's a very little baby dog park. It's for little dogs. It's a small space. It's fake grass. You know, she loves it there. You know, a lot of, like, small dog parks have a lot of big dogs in there. And there's like—this is just delicate. Nice intro. We go there. There's two toddlers.

Nick: Human children.

Leah: Human toddlers.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: Running amongst the dogs. Now this has happened at other dog parks where people bring their kids. And it kind of makes you slightly nervous because, like, the dogs think the kids are playing, you know?

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Because they're like, throwing their arms everywhere. And then you kind of feel like you have to be super responsible with the kids, like, guarding the kids. And, you know, it's sort of you're watching the dog, you're making sure the dog doesn't run. You know, it adds another layer.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I was like, "Where—" the mom is on a speakerphone phone call over on the corner.

Nick: All right.

Leah: I assume that this French bulldog that's by her feet is her dog. And I tell myself, "You know what, Leah? She couldn't leave the kids at home, obviously."

Nick: Right.

Leah: You know, it's their Sunday. She's bringing the kids, she's bringing the dog. She's getting it all done at the same time. She's got a lot on her plate. Yes, we all have to now basically leash our dogs in a dog park because there are two children running, and we want to make sure these kids are safe. But okay. Her kids just run in circles, grabbing at dogs, touching strangers' dogs. We're all making sure our dogs know how to be okay. Okay, she gets up to leave, gets her kids. No dog. That was not her dog.

Nick: [laughs] Oh ho!

Leah: That was just a dog.

Nick: Wait, so she just brought her kids to the dog park.

Leah: She just brought her kids to the dog park. I don't know if she was like, "Oh, here's a fenced-in area. I gotta make some phone calls, and these other people are gonna watch my kids."

Nick: Oh, isn't that interesting?

Leah: She literally just unleashed her kids with no dog. It was one of the wildest things I've ever seen.

Nick: [laughs] Wow! Okay. Interesting approach. Interesting approach.

Leah: Wild!

Nick: Yeah, it does feel like it's not a great idea.

Leah: It just seems like it's the wrong idea.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I understand you gotta get to the dog park. You have your kids, your multi—you have so much going on. You're, like, overwhelmed. That was not this at all. This woman was casual. She had a tennis outfit on. She had a nice speakerphone conversation going on with the girls. "Look at all these people watching my kids, letting them play with their dogs. Oh, I don't have a dog. I'm just gonna let my kids out here."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: No dog! When she walked out with no dog, I think three of us almost passed out, because everybody was watching these kids because we were all nervous. So we're like, oh, she's gonna grab her dog and go. Oh. No, there was no dog.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: This felt like a whole new level of something I didn't know was happening.

Nick: This is something that's happening. Okay. Well for me, I would like to vent. And so recently, we had a live event in Portland, Oregon. And I got there by airplane. And oh, wouldn't you know, things happen on airplanes. And so I am enjoying my flight. I am at the aisle. I have an aisle seat. That's my preferred seating. And so I'm at the aisle, and there is a woman next to me, and then there are other people on the plane. And so the person next to me knew another passenger on the airplane one row up across the aisle.

Leah: Oh, no.

Nick: So kind of diagonal. Sort of diagonal.

Leah: Nope.

Nick: Okay? So I'm painting the scene.

Leah: I'm nervous.

Nick: And so oh, you have no idea what's happening. So the woman next to me wanted to get her friend's attention, and so started saying her name. Now if you've ever been in an airplane, it is actually quite loud on an airplane. It is actually hard to yell on an airplane. Like, the ambient noise is quite loud. And so the woman next to me is yelling this woman's name across the cabin so loud, but she can't hear because there's just too much ambient noise. And so, like, that didn't work.

Nick: And so it was a little chilly in the cabin, and so the person next to me wanted to make sure that her friend had a jacket. And so what she decided to do was give her jacket to her friend. Now instead of getting up, walking over, handing the jacket, what she decided to do was bundle the jacket up into a little ball and throw it across me—because I'm there in the middle—up across the aisle, and up one row to try to get it to her friend. So that's happening. We're throwing a jacket.

Nick: And her aim was actually not that bad, but it wasn't great. So it actually, like, hit the seat in front and then, like, bounced into the aisle. So obviously, the friend saw the jacket and was like, "Oh, jacket! Okay, great." And I was sort of like, oh, that happened. So then an hour later, the friend wants to come say hi and wants to give my seatmate some food product of some sort. And now there's a whole conversation between me about whether or not we're gonna take this food or we're not gonna take this food. And it's sort of like, just take it or don't take it, but what is this conversation? Because I cannot get anything done here. I can't watch my movie because you guys are, like, right in the middle of this. And so the seatmate eventually takes the food. Okay, fine. Eats it. And there's a metal spoon involved with this food, and my seatmate would like to return this spoon. So, Leah ...

Leah: [laughs] Oh, no.

Nick: ... how do you think ...

Leah: No. Nope. No!

Nick: [laughs] How do you think this spoon was returned?

Leah: If this spoon was thrown, I'm ...

Nick: It sure was!

Leah: No, it wasn't! [laughs]

Nick: It was thrown across me, across an aisle. And this metal spoon hit the screen, and she got the screen—I mean, hey, points for the rebound—so loud, because you gotta really chuck a spoon.

Leah: What?

Nick: It was wild! It was so wild. I was like, I cannot believe you just threw a spoon on an aircraft across me and across an aisle to another person. What did you think was—were they gonna catch it? Because also, that person was not expecting the spoon.

Leah: I was gonna say, they're not expecting.

Nick: It's not like they were there, ready to catch. All they knew is something whacked their monitor and, like, fell on the floor. And it's like, what are we doing? What are we doing?

Leah: What is happening?

Nick: What is happening? Like, don't throw things on an airplane.

Leah: You could take out someone's eye!

Nick: I mean, there's so many reasons why this is a bad idea, but yeah, why are we throwing metal spoons? Why are we doing this?

Leah: I cannot believe they threw a spoon.

Nick: It was so wild. And so, I mean, on some level, I was so delighted.

Leah: Was she laughing?

Nick: No, no. This is totally serious. Like, oh, this is how we give things to other people. This is how this is done. Yeah. Also, could you not have sat together? Like, if they asked me to switch seats? Delighted. Aisle for aisle, one row up, one row back. Would have been happy to have switched. No problem. I would gladly agree to that swap to make all this not happen. But yeah, we're throwing things on an airplane.

Leah: Just hold the spoon until landing!

Nick: Or that. Yeah. How important was it to return the spoon? Why are we returning the spoon?

Leah: She had to eat her—yeah, she had to eat her melon balls. Call back!

Nick: [laughs] Yes, it was a formal watermelon in white wine. And so how else are you gonna get it out of that compote? She wanted to use that spoon.

Leah: Follow those etiquette rules.

Nick: Those are the rules we follow.

Leah: Yeah, but she is skipping the part where we don't throw things in a plane.

Nick: Yeah, let's not. So that's my vent.

Leah: That's wild!

Nick: Totally wild.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned that we have a category that I wasn't aware of, but I believe it's where I dwell. And I knew there was 'informal,' but now there—what was it? Highly informal?

Nick: Highly informal. Yes.

Leah: Highly informal, which is where one can put their face into a watermelon, and then ...

Nick: It's allowed.

Leah: ... spit the seeds to see how far it goes against your friends. And that is where I love to dwell. So I'm glad there's a name for it.

Nick: Judy says it's okay.

Leah: Judy says it's okay!

Nick: And I learned that you're playing three-dimensional chess and playing mind games with me by withholding puns. And now that I'm aware of this diabolical plan, I will foil it.

Leah: [laughs] Well obviously, I didn't really want to. I wouldn't have brought it up.

Nick: [laughs] Or is this part of the plan? Oh!

Leah: I mean, uh oh. Figure it out!

Nick: Oh, it's Inception!

Leah: So many layers!

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, I want to make sure you're following us on all the social media: on Instagram, on Threads, on Facebook. And we have a private Facebook group—very VIP. And you gotta join that, too.

Leah: I'm not even in it.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it's so VIP Leah's not even in it. I know. Very strict, tight door policy. You gotta reach a certain level of etiquette. Highly informal need not apply.

Leah: Highly informal is not allowed.

Nick: [laughs] So check out the private Facebook group. We'd love to see you in there. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right Leah, it's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: I just want to do a cordial of kindness to everybody that came out to our DC show.

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: Because meeting people in person, it really blows my mind that people enjoy us. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. No, I get that.

Leah: And that they spend time with us every week, and then they come to a live show. And it's so nice to see people's faces. And, you know, some people we message with online but, you know, the whole person behind it. And it's just I really am genuinely shocked every time, and I'm really grateful.

Nick: Yeah. And actually, that was my cordials of kindness for today, too. And it is so wild and amazing that, you know, we put this show out into the universe and then, like, to have people physically drive somewhere, find parking, and to see us, it does blow the mind. It's like, oh, that is so sweet. And it's so—I'm very touched by it. And we actually got a couple of people showing up who are sort of etiquette heroes. They've written etiquette questions that are famous.

Leah: They sit in our memory forever. [laughs]

Nick: The person that wrote the story about having a roommate that had a bear skull decomposing? That letter-writer came. We got to meet them. Or the person who had a birthday party and had a birthday cake, and these people came and be like, "Oh. Actually, we have to go early, so can we have that cake now?" And it's like, "Oh, we haven't done happy birthday yet." And they were like, "No, no. Now. We need the cake now. Oh, and actually, the piece you just cut? Not big enough. Bigger." That letter-writer, they showed up and it was like, so great to meet you. Like, you're famous.

Leah: It's so great to meet you because these have lived in my brain since I—we read them.

Nick: Yeah. And so it's so fun to actually, like, meet the people behind some of these bonkers stories. So thank you, DC. Had a great time. And I hope to meet everybody at some live show in the future, so I do hope we'll get to meet everybody at some point.