Savoring Soufflés, Responding to Condolence Notes, Keeping Cutlery at Buffets, and More

Nick: Do you serve things off the floor? Do you double down on wrong information? Do you take forever to buy chocolates? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So this one comes from a listener who asks, "Is there a proper way to eat soufflé? From the inside out or outside in? With a spoon or with a fork?

Leah: [laughs] You know, when these questions come up, you immediately think, "I'm sure, now that the question has been posed, that I have been doing it incorrectly my entire life."

Nick: I mean, that is often my assumption.

Leah: [laughs] Yes. That I've been doing it wrong?

Nick: That you have been doing it wrong. Yes. [laughs]

Leah: I think it's fair. I would say, "Nick!" But I think that's a good guess that I have been.

Nick: So you've had a soufflé, though?

Leah: I have had a soufflé. I do think that I've also had personal soufflés. I'm not sharing it with other people.

Nick: Right, yeah. Yeah, that's likely.

Leah: And I feel like I've gone fork.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And I have gone outside in.

Nick: Okay. Outer edge, and then working yourself to the middle, the mushy middle.

Leah: I go edge to middle, edge to middle, edge to middle.

Nick: So if this were a pizza, you would be eating the crust first?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Interesting. Okay, so what is a soufflé? Let's just describe it to somebody who may not have had one.

Leah: Eggies!

Nick: It is eggy. That's right. And basically, it is some sort of base of some sort. And then that base is folded into egg whites. And then you bake it, and because the egg whites have been whipped and are fluffy and are full of air bubbles, as it bakes, those little air bubbles expand—because physics. And so this whole thing sort of rises and it creates this texture, which is often described as soufflé-like.

Leah: Fluffy.

Nick: Puffy, airy. And it comes from the french verb, which basically means, like, to blow or breath or inflate or puff. Yes. And so that is what this creates. And even if you haven't eaten one, you've probably seen it. It often comes in, like, a white porcelain ramekin dish type thing. Straight sides. And then the soufflé itself, because it rose during baking, is sort of like, above the edge of the dish. So it puffs up, like, another inch or so.

Leah: It's like the dish is wearing a hat.

Nick: It is like a little chapeau. Yes.

Leah: [laughs] A petit chapeau.

Nick: Yes, exactly. Oui. And so it's delightful. It is a great dish. It's tasty. The texture is so unique. It also has this sort of temporal quality to it, because you must eat it immediately. It cannot wait, because otherwise it will deflate. And so there's sort of this urgency, which is kind of fun.

Leah: It's very much like the Swedish pancake, which my father used to make as a breakfast, which puffs up in the oven and then as soon as you cut it—whoop!

Nick: Yeah, exactly. And they come in many different flavors. So there's gonna be savory. Very common would be cheese. And then very common that it's a dessert thing. And often you'll see chocolate, vanilla, Grand Marnier. This is very classic. And you're probably only gonna encounter this in a restaurant at this point. Very rare is the home chef that is gonna serve a soufflé at a dinner party in their home. Not that you can't, but I think a lot of home chefs just, like, would not attempt it.

Leah: Yeah. I mean, you are an artiste if you're doing a home soufflé.

Nick: A soufflé artiste. [laughs] I mean, honestly, they're actually not difficult. You could do it. You just have to learn a little technique in terms of, like, how to sort of fold properly, the proper way to whip egg whites. But I think if you just, like, put your mind to it and watch enough YouTube videos, you could definitely do it. Like, you absolutely could do it.

Leah: Now I just want to do it. I just want to be like, "I made the soufflés!"

Nick: Yeah. Oh, I mean, and there's nothing more impressive at a dinner party than, like, I made a soufflé. Yeah. And it turned out great. That's everybody's homework. Make a soufflé.

Leah: Make a soufflé. I love eggs.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, and you like chocolate.

Leah: I've never had a sweet soufflé. I've only had savory soufflés.

Nick: Interesting! Okay, so what's interesting also is that soufflés are actually not necessarily in fashion anymore. They were very big from their origins in France in, like, the 18th century up until, like, the 1970s. For whatever reason, once we get into the 1980s, we just aren't doing soufflés as a society—at least in the United States. I think it got replaced by the molten chocolate cake.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: Can you picture this? Right? Because that was the dessert of the '80s. In my mind, like, that is the dessert of that decade. That's Wall Street. Molten chocolate cake. And so soufflés. Yeah, they just became sort of fussy, and this sort of passé thing. Kind of went the way of pasta salad and sun-dried tomatoes, and all of these ingredients that sort of come and go in our lives. So in a restaurant, though, you will often be served an individual ramekin soufflé. And let's say this is dessert, and you will be served this thing, and it may come with, like, a little sauce on the side. You might actually get, like, a little pitcher of sauce. And it may even come with whipped cream. And so what do you do? How do you eat this?

Leah: See, what's so funny is because I've only had savory soufflés, I went fork.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But with a dessert soufflé, I would go opposite. I would go spoon, and I would start in the middle.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And work my way to the side.

Nick: And what do we do with this pitcher of sauce? What do we do with this whipped cream?

Leah: I would pour it directly into my mouth. Um ...

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: And then—and then do a little whipped cream on—was that not on the list of options? Well, I guess, because it would just slide down, and then it would go off the side of the ramekin. So I—do you have to make, like, a little hole in the middle for the sauce?

Nick: Interesting! I mean, I love—I love the problem-solving techniques that we're using here. Okay, just for a moment, let's go to that cheese soufflé, savory soufflé you just mentioned and how you wanted to use a fork. That actually would be considered correct, especially if it's being served with, like, a salad. You know, very often you might actually have, like, a luncheon where there's, like, cheese soufflé and salad, in which case yes, you're going to use a fork for the soufflé, because we are not gonna be using a spoon for our salad. And so yes, fork makes sense.

Nick: You would also use a fork if the soufflé itself is a texture that requires it. Like, it's a particularly robust soufflé, really hearty, really sturdy. Or it's a soufflé that has other things in it. Like, sometimes it's not just, like, cheese. It might actually have, like, chunks of something. It could be a fish soufflé, in which case there might actually be, like, pieces of fish in there, in which case yes, I think a fork might make sense. But when it comes to dessert, yes, spoon. Spoon is the thing. And you talk about a little hole. Correct? Yes.

Leah: Oh! What is happening?

Nick: You will take your spoon, and like you're going ice fishing, you're going to carve a little hole in the middle, maybe an inch, inch and a half depending on the ratio of the ramekin we're dealing with, and you're gonna create a hole large enough to pour the sauce in. So we are going to create the hole, and then we're gonna take the sauce, pour it in the hole. If there's whipped cream, you can also add that on top. And then what you do is kind of up to you. For me, I like to have elements of each texture in each bite. And so I'm gonna want to insert my spoon in such a way where I'm going to be able to get souffléness, I'm going to be able to get sauciness. And I want all of these things together in one bite. And so I might actually kind of go equidistant from the middle to the edge so that I'm kind of getting all of these textures all at once. Or you're going from the edge, but you're making sure you're getting some sauce in that bite. I mean, that's my technique. If that's not what you want, I feel like, soufflé? Do it your way.

Leah: [laughs] Soufflé, do it your way. I love it. When something rhymes, you know it's real.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, it becomes true if there's rhyming.

Leah: But I do like—I would want a little bit of everything in my bite.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think soufflé is about texture at the end of the day, and so I want to experience all these different textures. I mean, sometimes I just want to experience the soufflé texture without sauce, in which case, that might be that bite. Sometimes I might just want a real saucy bite, in which case, that's what that is.

Leah: [laughs] I wish our listeners could have seen you with that one. There was a shoulder throw in there.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, I got a little saucy. And actually, there is a version of soufflé which is cold soufflé, which instead of using heat in the oven to sort of create that texture, it actually uses gelatin to sort of set up. So it is still that egg white-y texture, but then gelatin gets added and then goes in the fridge, and so it's sort of chilled and it's sort of delicious. And this is a great dessert thing.

Nick: And as I was reading all of the etiquette greats about soufflés today, I came across this little anecdote from Letitia Baldrige. And it's about cold soufflé, but it was, like, so bonkers that I was like, "Oh, I have to bring this up." And so she had a book in the '80s called The Complete Guide to a Great Social Life.

Leah: Mmm!

Nick: And by all accounts, Letitia Baldrige really—she really nailed, like, home entertaining. Like, I think she was probably great at it. And I think going to dinner at her house was, like, definitely a memorable experience.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: But she tells this story, which is quote, "I will never forget one night when we had a US senator and the ambassador from Great Britain and their wives coming to dinner. The serving waitress called in sick just before she was to arrive, so I had to go it alone as both cook and waitress with Bob—" that's her husband— "handling the drinks. Things went splendidly until the dessert. When I took my prized strawberry soufflé from the fridge, it slipped from my hands, and spilled forth in one repulsive pink sludge all over the kitchen floor. When I tried to scoop it up, the soufflé part of it fell. The texture had completely changed. It was a gelatinous, runny mess. I thought for a second, then rushed to get six large brandy snifters and scooped it into those. I mixed a scoop of vanilla ice cream into each brandy snifter—it made the pink stuff look better—added two large strawberries on top of each one, and brought it in as my pièce de résistance. The moral of the story is: as long as your guests do not see what you have done to their food, they will think you are a great cook. In other words, don't tell them!"

Leah: [laughs] This makes me like her so much more. I mean, I already—I love this. This, for me, is bonus points. You know, I think this is fantastic.

Nick: I mean, the moral of the story is that if you go to Letitia Baldrige's house, she's gonna serve you things that spilled on the floor and then not tell you.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: That's the moral of this story.

Leah: Yes, I love that. Please don't tell me.

Nick: I mean, did she scoop up the soufflé off the floor and then put it in brandy snifters?

Leah: Yes, that's exactly what happened. But because it's Letitia Baldrige, I'm sure she observed the five-second rule. She acted fast.

Nick: Yeah. Okay. All right. Or I mean, is there a world in which there was maybe some soufflé left in the dish after it spilled?

Leah: No.

Nick: That was not on the floor?

Leah: Because then she wouldn't have had to not tell her guests.

Nick: Yeah, it would not really be a secret, would it? Yeah.

Leah: Imagine how clean these floors are, Nick. These are clean.

Nick: I'm sure they were very clean. I would like to assume that there was some remaining soufflé in the soufflé dish, and she used that to create a new dish.

Leah: Oh, you're kidding yourself. You're fooling yourself.

Nick: Soufflé on the floor is not what we're talking about. And that's just sort of a misreading.

Leah: You're soufooling yourself.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: It's very funny. It's very funny.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, whatever it is, I do love that this is totally her vibe. Like, I can't imagine Emily doing this.

Leah: No.

Nick: Judy would never do this.

Leah: Judy would never.

Nick: No. Letitia really has her own lane, and so I appreciate that.

Leah: I really like Letitia's lane. You know, because we all drop things and you're in a pinch.

Nick: So soufflés. I feel like it's a great dish. If you've never had one, I think you should try them. And they're not that difficult to eat once you have some tricks.

Leah: Souantastic.

Nick: Hmm. That was a stretch.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: That deflated pretty fast.

Leah: Ooh, Nick! Yes! Yes!

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep. So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about responding to condolence notes. So in a very old episode, we talked about how to write a condolence note. But today, I kind of wanted to talk about what it's like from the other side.

Leah: And I think just to recap, Nick and I had discussed sort of how don't let perfection be the enemy of good. And people often get uncomfortable or afraid they're gonna say the wrong thing, and then just don't reach out. And how the best thing is to just reach out, whether it's a phone call or a voice memo or a text or an email or a card, just to let people know that you're thinking of them.

Leah: Like, I recently left a message for somebody because I didn't know what to say. And I said, "Obviously, no pressure to call me back. I just want to let you know I'm thinking of you. You know, I'm here." I don't even know what I said. You know, you sort of, like, black out because you're just trying to tell people that you love them. And I wanted to make sure they knew I'm not giving them any work back. This was just that I wanted to reach out, say "I love you. I'm thinking of you. I'm here if you need me. Please don't feel like you have another job of getting back to me."

Nick: Yeah, it's a reach out. It's a one way thing. It's just like, "Hey, thinking of you. Just want to know I'm acknowledging that this thing happened." And that's enough. That's enough. But we want to do something. I don't think we want to do nothing. But for people who receive these, there's often the question of, like, oh, how do I respond? What's my obligation in terms of etiquette? And we get a lot of questions from people on this topic. I mean, quite a lot of people write in about this, and a very representative email just came in, and it's quote, "My mother recently passed away, and while I'm trying to mourn and find my new normal, an individual—let's call her Lisa—told me that I had to send out a thank-you card to everyone who attended my mother's memorial service and signed the book. Then she proceeded to tell me that this needed to happen within seven days of the service. I'm sorry, what? I'm in a fog. I'm sitting on endless hold with Social Security, and now I'm expected to write thank-you notes to 200 people, most of whom I don't have addresses for? Is this standard? I was arguably raised by wolves, but I feel as though I've come leaps and bounds since finding your show. I've started with those who sent flowers or have given our family meals and thoughtful treats. And I have addresses for those who've sent cards of sympathy in the mail, so I'm able to mail them thank you notes. But what do I do about everyone else? Is Lisa correct? Please help!"

Leah: I would say, no, Lisa is not correct.

Nick: Yeah. Lisa, what are you doing? What are you doing, Lisa?

Leah: Most importantly, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: It's so hard, and grief is encompassing. It's a monster.

Nick: Yeah. And I think 'fog' is the word here.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Yes, this is a fog. And that's expected. That's normal. That's the slack people should give you. And so Lisa is not giving you any slack here.

Leah: And anybody who's been through it, like, I never—I don't even expect an acknowledgement when I'm leaving notes or calling people for sympathy. And I'll say to them, "Do not feel you need to respond because there's—you're going through so much to then"—and people just want to show up for you to then expect to have to do something back is too much.

Nick: Yeah. So I feel like Lisa, not correct. Also not helpful.

Leah: Not helpful.

Nick: You know? Even if that was the rule in some world, for somebody to, like, make you feel bad about that, like, that's also an etiquette crime. So, like, that's a double whammy, but that is not the rule. So this is—what do we do with this?

Leah: I mean, I just think, take that off your plate.

Nick: For sure. So let's talk about what the "rule" is, quote-unquote. It is true that you should acknowledge people who have done a kindness for you—which you've done. You've actually already said you've actually acknowledged people who, like, sent flowers or brought food for you. Like, that's great. And how you do that is up to you. You could do that in person the next time you see them. So if you see these people a year later, be like, "Hey, thank you so much for that casserole. I really appreciated it when my mother died." That could be verbal. That could be a year later. That could be great. You can text people. You can email. Sure, you could do the handwritten note if you want. You want to just acknowledge that kindness. But let me be clear: there is no deadline for this. Definitely, it's not seven days, but also, there's just no deadline for this. You know, you do it when you're ready, whenever that is.

Leah: I can't even imagine, like, your parent passes, which is like one of the biggest relationships in your entire life ever, and then you have to deal with the grief, and then it's so much administrative work. You have all this stuff that you're not equipped to deal with in this headspace, and then somebody's like, "Oh, you have seven days to get addresses for people who you don't even know where they live, and then write them each notes." What?

Nick: Yeah. No, I mean, that's totally bonkers.

Leah: It's bonkers!

Nick: And also, chances are even if people did bring flowers or treats, you may not remember that they did that. You may not remember who brought what. I mean, it is a fog. And I think everybody gets that, and that's fine. Like, if I brought you a casserole and you never sent me a thank-you note, I'm in a great place with that. I would not hold that against you at all. It would not even hit my radar that you hadn't acknowledged it because it's like, I just wanna do this nice thing for you and that's the end of this transaction. I am not expecting anything back from that. And I think everybody else feels the same.

Leah: I think everybody else feels the same.

Nick: Except for Lisa. Lisa's the only person I would actually write a thank-you note to because she's expecting it, and she's expecting it now.

Leah: I wouldn't write it to her either, to be honest.

Nick: Oh, really?

Leah: But I wanna say, not only are people not expecting it, people don't want you to feel like you have to do something. And that's why they are sending flowers, showing up, bringing you food, because they want to help. And I'm sure all of your friends wish they could help more, but they just don't know what to do. So the last thing they want you to do is to then feel like you have to do something else.

Nick: That's a great point. Yes. I mean, nobody who cares here about you is actually then gonna make you feel bad on top of that. Like, that's—that's not what anybody wants. Yeah, that's a great point.

Leah: I'm sure Lisa probably cares. She just cares in this way where she's like, "These are things that have to get done," and she just doesn't—we don't need to take her directions.

Nick: And I would imagine that in Lisa's life, she does derive comfort from sort of structure.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And I would imagine if she's had a loss in her life, she may have found that this structure of, like, "Oh, I have something to do. I have to write these notes that'll sort of occupy myself or that'll make me feel better, or that will—that will somehow bring me comfort." She might have done that for herself, and that's fine. I think the issue here is that she is sort of assuming that that's also what you want and need at this time, and that is clearly not the case.

Leah: Yeah, I think that's a very astute point. I was thinking that I think some people need, "I'm gonna do this next. I'm gonna do this next. I'm gonna do this next." And that helps them.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: So she's probably that type of person.

Nick: Yes. And I think when we think about death in general, you know, one of the comforting things about traditions, whether it's a religious tradition or cultural tradition, is that it does give you a bit of a template to follow. And there is comfort in that. That's like, oh, when somebody dies, this is sort of the plan. This is kind of what we do. And so I can see for Lisa that, oh, writing notes, that's part of the plan, but that doesn't have to be your plan now.

Leah: No. If you want to just lay on the floor and stare at the ceiling, which is what I do when I'm upset, you do that. You do what you need to do to take care of yourself.

Nick: So I really appreciate that you sent in this question. I think a lot of people have felt something similar, and so I think hopefully other people will feel better about this in the future. So thank you.

Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "While at a party, I was chatting with some friends of friends. One person—let's call him Chad—said, 'Oh, I like this song. Who sings it?' The other person—let's call her Lisa—said, 'Oh, it's Kings of Leon.' She was wrong. I knew with a hundred percent confidence that she was wrong. I figured it would be safe to gently say the correct artist, so I chimed in with a very lighthearted, 'Oh, isn't it The Lumineers?' Lisa responded less gently with, 'No, it's Kings of Leon. Great song, though!' I was at an utter loss about what to do next. Lisa was so confident and so very wrong. The topic wasn't very important, so I didn't want to be petty and extend the debate, and maybe I shouldn't have even corrected her the first time. But then she doubled down. What does etiquette say about correcting people who act like they are right while they are a hundred percent, indisputably wrong about factual information?"

Leah: This reminds me of a really fun text exchange Nick and I had about a, what else, Love Island episode where one of the women on there was absolutely sure that the moon was bigger than the Earth.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Yep. Because in the sky it looks bigger.

Leah: It looks bigger. And that was her factual evidence.

Nick: And she was so confident.

Leah: So confident. And somebody was like, "Oh, no. I think, you know—" try—and then she went down hard.

Nick: "No, the moon is bigger!" [laughs]

Leah: The moon is bigger. And this has this ring to it. I also—there's an extra part to this where it's that somebody asked.

Nick: Mmm!

Leah: It wasn't like somebody—it's not like Lisa was like, "I love this song by Kings of Leon." And then maybe you just—you know, whether you let it go or not, that's one thing. But somebody has asked.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Possibly they want to download this song later or buy the album or, you know? And so there's a third person involved who's looking for facts.

Nick: Yes. Oh, that's a great point and nuance. Yes. You were invited to provide information.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Yes. This also reminds me of that time I think you had a joke about Toto's "Africa."

Leah: Yes.

Nick: In which case, there are lyrics in Toto's Africa that you know because it's part of the joke, and some audience member wanted to correct you.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And that didn't go great.

Leah: No, I'm pretty sure I did a vent about it.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] So yeah, I think people are just correcting people with wrong information. I mean, I will say I do get email from some of our listeners who correct me when they are incorrect. And I go back and I listen to the tape, and I'm like, "Oh, I didn't say that." And it's sort of like, how do I respond to this person who is very clearly trying to correct me when they are wrong? It is a dilemma we all face.

Leah: I think that I actually did an event about—I was at a Christmas party, and somebody corrected my English. Which just let it go. But somebody corrected my pluralization.

Nick: It's octopuses, everybody. Octopuses

Leah: Yelled it across the table, and then it was not let go. It was googled and then showed to them. So I mean, there are multiple ways to handle this situation. You could let it—but it—somebody did ask. They want to know the informat—also, I would never—if you're the kind of person who yells across the room to correct me, and I know I'm right, I'm gonna follow up.

Nick: Okay. Oh, you are.

Leah: I could just let it go, but you started it, so I'm gonna end it.

Nick: Yelling across the room is pretty aggressive.

Leah: It's aggressive. It's aggressive.

Nick: I mean, the rule is you can be polite and wrong, but you can't be rude and wrong.

Leah: You can't be rude and wrong!

Nick: Rude and wrong is not a combination that works.

Leah: And if somebody's asking for information and you're right, I mean, one option is you just pull up the song, you screenshot it, you text it to the person who asked.

Nick: I think maybe. Although that's so, like, "Oh, by the way, here's the real information, and I'm gonna do it behind Lisa's back." Right? Is that the idea?

Leah: Okay, well, then you can also CC in Lisa.

Nick: [laughs] That just makes this longer.

Leah: I think what—the first one, maybe I would have let it go, but then when they were like, "No, it's Kings of Leon. Great song, though," I think that might have been the thing that put me over, and I'd be like, "Let's pull it up. I'm so interested in knowing because I thought it was The Lumineers."

Nick: Okay. All right. I'm on board with this line of thinking. Yeah, because the "Great song, though," that's a little sassy.

Leah: Yeah, that's too much.

Nick: And so yeah, there would be an occasion to be like, "Huh! I mean, I just thought it was The Lumineers for some reason. Now I gotta look it up."

Leah: Yeah. What's so funny is that I also have a joke about how I said a word, and then this male comic, early 20s, was like, "That's not what that means." And then looked it up in front of me.

Nick: Oh, that must have been so satisfying.

Leah: And I mean, I was right.

Nick: Of course.

Leah: But looking something up in front of somebody is a statement piece.

Nick: And you better be sure you're right.

Leah: You better be right.

Nick: You really better be sure you're right.

Leah: And I think the only reason that it's okay in this is that Lisa said, "Great song, though," and was answering a question incorrectly. I wouldn't do it when she just said it.

Nick: Yes, I think correcting it was fine, especially in the way you did it. But etiquette is often not a negotiation. So I think once you got pushback on that, that's the end of it. We're just not going to continue down that line, because it doesn't matter. If the information was factually important and actually made a difference, like, "Oh, actually, I think the airport code for Oakland is OAK. Otherwise, that's Auckland, New Zealand. So I don't think you want to book a flight there." Like, if it's that conversation, then oh yeah, let's push back and, like, make sure we're booking the correct flights. But for this, I don't think it's a negotiation, and I do think we just let it go once we got that pushback.

Leah: I really think this whole question hinges on the fact that there's a third party asking the question. If Lisa was just like, "Great song, though," I'd be like, whatever, I don't care what she thinks. But here's this person who's gonna go buy the vinyl for their friend for their birthday.

Nick: He's gonna be in the K section, in the vinyl store instead of the L section.

Leah: And then he's gonna be at Amoeba Records. Like, "Let me sing you the song," and then they won't be able to remember the song, and then they're just gonna get the wrong album. They're gonna bring it home, they're gonna play it, and it's not gonna be there.

Nick: Or they're in Amoeba Records, and he's gonna start singing the song, and they'll be like, "Oh, no. That's The Lumineers, and you're an idiot."

Leah: [laughs] Yes.

Nick: And then how embarrassing.

Leah: Save them that trouble.

Nick: That's true. Okay. So our next question is quote, "When eating at a buffet station where silverware is provided in the initial table setting and not as part of the buffet line, what is the proper thing to do with one's silverware when going back for seconds, knowing that the server will usually clear the empty plate while the diner is away from the table? Should I leave the cutlery on the table? Seems unsanitary. Should I balance the used pieces on a clean piece of cutlery or place it on the napkin, which is my usual solution, but it feels a little awkward. Cutlery left on the plate seems to be a sign that the diner is finished with the meal altogether, and thus can lead to a prematurely cleared table."

Leah: I always put it on the napkin.

Nick: You do?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Whoa! Wild.

Leah: I don't know why that's getting a "whoa" and a "wild."

Nick: Because all right, I'm dining, and then I get up to get more food, and I take my napkin, which was in my lap, and I place it on the table, and then I put a knife and fork on top of it. That is what is happening?

Leah: I don't want people to take my knife and fork. I'm not finished.

Nick: Right. So do you fold the napkin sort of, like, in a square shape? Or is it crumpled? Like, what is this?

Leah: No, it's gonna be in a rectangle.

Nick: It's a rectangle. And then you put the knife and fork on top of that. I don't like that. I don't like that at all.

Leah: Well, are you gonna carry the cutlery with you to the buffet?

Nick: Well, I will say this is an awkward situation, so I can see why we have been summoned today. But the idea that the napkin goes back on the table mid-meal? Don't love that. And then I also don't like the idea that we're, like, putting dirty silverware on top of the napkin. I'm, like, not into that.

Leah: I'm gonna say that a lot of places where I've had buffets, there are paper napkins, and I'm putting it on a paper napkin. I love that you believe that at this all you can eat buffet, it's only material napkins. But they know what's going on.

Nick: Oh, it's not linen. All right, that's a fair point.

Leah: There's probably a linen one, but there's also a bunch of paper napkins that have been put on your table for, like, the eight rounds that you're about to hit. I'm gonna grab one of those napkins and put my cutlery on it.

Nick: Oh, is the napkin paper? I honestly had not considered that detail. That does seem material. Pun intended.

Leah: But I mean, even if it wasn't paper and I just had the cloth napkin, I would still put my cutlery on it. Of course, I would lick them clean first.

Nick: Oh, of course you would. Yes. I mean, I do recall that when we were having a root beer float or, like, some ice cream sundae—or no, milkshake, I feel like Emily Post was cool with you, like, licking the spoon clean and putting it back on the counter. And if Emily says that that was cool then, like, it feels like, this is fine. Right?

Leah: The thing for me is that the cutlery's going back in my mouth.

Nick: And so you feel like the napkin is a better spot?

Leah: I feel like the napkin is cleaner than the table. That's what I feel.

Nick: Yes. And that is probably true. Right. Okay. Now the balancing the cutlery on more cutlery? That feels a little tricky, because that assumes that there's one piece of cutlery that you had not used yet. Like, oh, we hadn't used the spoon yet. But then isn't the cutlery on the table? Like, wasn't the cutlery on the table when we started? So if we're concerned about cutlery-table contact, then, like, what have we done there?

Leah: Well, I would assume that the cutlery was on the napkin.

Nick: Right.

Leah: Another option is you just bring it with you.

Nick: You bring it with you? Like, front pocket?

Leah: Front pocket. Or in your hand.

Nick: Oh, you carry—okay, I do not like that idea.

Leah: So you keep it in your hand, and then you put the plate over it, right? Because then you're using the other hand to serve.

Nick: Although the issue there is now somebody's gonna come around and see a table that has no plates and no cutlery on it. And that to me says, like, "Oh, we're totally done with this meal. Nobody's coming back." There's no objet that indicates somebody is returning.

Leah: I'm fine with leaving it on your napkin. I'm giving you other options.

Nick: I mean, the napkin rule is that when we're mid-meal, we leave the napkin on the chair. We don't put it back on the table. So that's why I'm a little ...

Leah: This is a buffet.

Nick: It is a dining experience in public, and so I feel like not all rules are suspended.

Leah: No, but I'm saying in a buffet—I love buffets, let me say. I love them. This is one of my favorite activities with my Nana and Pop Pop. You get up a lot. There's a lot of getting up. I don't think people are expecting you to leave your napkin on your chair. They know you're coming back. You're back at the buffet, you're refilling. This is why you came.

Nick: Okay, so a couple ideas to add to the whiteboard: do we all leave the table at the same time, or does somebody hold court? Is that possible?

Leah: I like somebody to hold court, that way you don't have to worry about your bags.

Nick: I do recall being at Valentino's in Omaha, which is a buffet-style restaurant. And they had laminated cards on the table. And so one side says, "We'll be back," and then the other side said, "We're done." And so you would leave the card on the table to just indicate to the restaurant your status. And so I feel like buffets should just have this available, but if they don't, I think you should bring your own card.

Leah: Yeah, but even if the card is there, where are you leaving your silverware?

Nick: Well, then I would just ask for new silverware because, like, the concern here is that I don't want to have my table cleared and my table to, like, be given to somebody else, right? Isn't that the main concern?

Leah: No, they're not gonna give them—they're not gonna take the table away. They're just afraid that they're gonna clear their cutlery.

Nick: And that they'll never get more cutlery ever again.

Leah: And that they'll never get more cutlery ever again.

Nick: Oh. For me, I felt like the main concern was like, oh, you're gonna clear the table and then reseat somebody there.

Leah: I don't think so. I think they're afraid that they're gonna take their cutlery.

Nick: Oh, it's just a cutlery issue, and that there's no more in the back.

Leah: I was gonna say a lot of places bring you fresh cutlery every time you get a new plate, but because this person seems to want to keep their cutlery, I was assuming that this question was about wanting to keep their cutlery, not about losing the table. Because in buffet places, people know people are coming back.

Nick: Okay. All right. I still think you can bring your own card, though, that indicates you'll be returning. I think everybody should just have their own laminated card at home that they bring.

Leah: I think that's a great idea. I love that idea just for funsies everywhere you go.

Nick: But, okay. It's more about the cutlery and never getting ...

Leah: But then you still have to do something ...

Nick: Okay, here's my final answer.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: We have a side plate. We have a bread plate. If we don't, we ask for one, and we use that as our dedicated cutlery station when we are abroad.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: How's that?

Leah: That sounds great.

Nick: It gives us a surface, which is not the table, to place cutlery. It definitely sends the signal that, like, oh, we may return, and harmony will be restored to the universe.

Leah: I think it would particularly work if you had the "I'm gonna be back" laminated ...

Nick: It does help to have a "I will be back" laminated card. Maybe we should offer those in our store. [laughs] The Were You Raised By Wolves? buffet indicator. Yeah. All right. Look for that in the store soon.

Leah: I love it!

Nick: So do you have questions for us about buffets or anything else? Let us know! You can let us know through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I want you to know that I almost repented.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Then I realized I actually don't feel bad about what I did. [laughs]

Nick: Okay. So no remorse. Okay. So we're gonna vent today.

Leah: Which was a weird feeling in and of itself. But ...

Nick: Welcome to the dark side.

Leah: I was being authentically me, and so I don't feel bad about it. So I'm gonna vent.

Nick: Okay. What has happened?

Leah: You know, and I realize that this is similar to another one I've had. I clearly have very specific things that set me off that are all along the same theme. And ...

Nick: Who didn't wave in traffic this time?

Leah: [laughs] I'm glad that you brought that up because this is akin. By the way, I had two people wave.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: On this. Like, back to back. And I mean, it kept me going for like 48 hours. I was like, there are good people out there. But I—so I was already on one. Let me say this. This happened yesterday. I had had multiple things go wrong back to back. I was resetting—you know when you're like, we're gonna start over. I'm gonna have a glass of water. I'm gonna go for a quick walk. I'm resetting. And then, you know, you tell yourself, miracles are happening. The universe is working for me, not to me. You know, I'm resetting. I'm trying so hard to reset.

Leah: And I'm out running errands, and I'm in a very busy parking lot. Like, there's 800 stores—obviously exaggeration, but at least 10 big stores. Very busy parking lot. People are—you know, people step out everywhere. There were carts left everywhere, which makes it very hard to maneuver. And then there's, you know, people trying to get the carts. And nobody's driving in any kind of regular fashion. So I'm looking at this one situation that's coming to me from one side, and I did not see this person on the other side who wanted to go across me and pull into an open spot.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But then I see them, and I go—I wave. "Oh!"

Nick: Okay. So we're being conscientious. We're sort of coordinating traffic.

Leah: And then I could have, by the way, been a complete jerk and just taken the spot. It was on my side, I was there. But they were signaling, and I went, "Oh!" And I did, like, a "Oh, happy face. I see you!" And I waved. And then there was nobody behind me, and I backed up. Like, not only—I could have just continued, but I backed up, and I did a "Oh!" smile. He threw his hands up and just started yelling at me through the window because he was like, he'd been there. How could I have driven forward at all? You know what I mean? Just this real aggression. And then continued to yell all the way passing in front of me into the spot.

Leah: And I lost my mind. I have—A) it wasn't—you weren't directly in front of me. I was obviously paying attention to 900 things. As soon as I saw you I rectified the situation for your benefit. I let you go. I did a smiley face, and then you want to yell at me aggressively through your window? No! No! No! People don't always see everything happening as soon as you want them to see it. But then if they see it, and they go, "Oh!" And then they're like, you know, nice, you then be nice. You then move forward.

Nick: I mean, I think we want to be very judicious with our car yelling in general, and make sure that it's always proportional and earned, and I don't think it was that here.

Leah: Imagine I let you go. "Oh, you go ahead. Sorry. I didn't see you." I could have pulled into that spot. I was technically there first. I backed up. I waved.

Nick: No good deed goes unpunished, Leah.

Leah: No good deed.

Nick: So for me, I would like to vent. So long story short, I wanted to commit homicide in a chocolate shop. [laughs]

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So I was in a fancy Belgian chocolate shop here in New York, and I just wanted a small box of chocolates to bring as, like, a host gift for a dinner party. And so I walk into the store, and there is a family of four who was there first and is about to order and it's like, okay, I understand how this works. They will order. And so they wanted a box of 16 chocolates. How lovely! And they took so long deciding every single one of those 16 chocolates.

Leah: No!

Nick: And there was discussion among them all. There were questions about what was inside each one. There was a question among themselves about who liked which one better. And this took so long. It was unbelievably long. It was comically long. It was so long that once we were two minutes in, I took out my phone and I hit the stopwatch function just to time how long this was gonna take, because it was like, what are we doing?

Nick: And there was only one person working behind the counter, and so there was no way for me to jump the queue and be like, "Oh, my order is very quick." There was just no way to do that. All I could do was just suffer this indignity of this family trying to select which 16 chocolates they wanted in this box and how many of each. And it was so maddening! And I tried to catch the eye of the person working there, which was like, "How long is this gonna take? Isn't this maddening?" And she did make that eye contact connection, and was like, "Yeah, I know, this is ridiculous." So at least I felt good that she acknowledged that this was not how this is supposed to go. I tried to catch the eye of the mom in this family, and I didn't know what I wanted my eye contact to signal, because it's sort of like, yes, they should take the time that they want to order chocolate. I guess that is reasonable. But I did feel like I wanted them to be more ready. I wanted them to be more prepared for this. And they just weren't. They just weren't ready. And as we know, that is just one of my things.

Leah: That is one of your things.

Nick: It is definitely one of my things. And so all I could do—because, like, when you endure something like this, you can't just walk out of the store and just be like, oh, that was the end of that and, like, I'm at peace. And so all I could do was as it was my turn, finally, after 96 hours of this, I decided—because they were still in the store, because obviously these are not fast people who decided to dash from the store immediately when they got the bag. I decided to give my order so crisply, so succinctly, so demonstratively, "This is how this should be done, people" sort of way that that's all I could do, which was just like, "Hi, I would like to have three each of dark chocolate, cappuccino, champagne, and raspberry. It's a gift. If you could wrap it up. Thank you!" One sentence, one breath. Done. And as I said that, I did turn to make eye contact with the family, which was just a sort of a oh, in case you were wondering, that's how that should work. And was that rude, that glance? Maybe it was a little provocative, but I'm prepared to accept the consequences for that.

Leah: I love that this story started with a committing homicide in a Belgian chocolate shop.

Nick: [laughs] It was so maddening, because I mean, what questions do you have about the dark chocolate? Really, honestly? Like, they're all good. They're all gonna be fine. You can't go wrong. Just pick.

Leah: Thank goodness we have this show.

Nick: Really, honestly. No, I mean, as this was happening—and I had a lot of time to think about it—knowing that I could tell you and everybody about this did make me feel better. I mean, it is why I did not actually commit homicide that day. There was no death by chocolate on that day. Yeah.

Leah: This would be a great sketch. I mean, like an actual drawing sketch.

Nick: Oh, yes. If anybody wants to illustrate this, send it to us. Yeah. If we have any artists in the audience, I would love to see this depicted in pictorial form.

Leah: Because it's so visual.

Nick: But I gotta say, the chocolates are good. So I mean, worth the wait? I guess maybe.

Leah: Worth the wait.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Because we also got a great story.

Nick: And we got a story. Even though I had to suffer to get it.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Isn't that the way?

Leah: There would be no comedy without that way, let's be honest.

Nick: Yeah. No, that's true. Yeah. What is it? Tragedy plus time equals comedy.

Leah: This was a lot of time. You timed it.

Nick: Yeah. No, I literally timed it. So it did reach the point of comedy. [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned—and also, I really love it—you have a food timeline.

Nick: Oh, sure.

Leah: And that according to the Nick food timeline, soufflés went out in the '70s and molten cake took over in the '80s.

Nick: Yeah, that's what happened. And I learned that you love buffets.

Leah: Oh, I love them.

Nick: Although, did I learn that? I mean, I guess I had it confirmed. I had a suspicion.

Leah: I think if you had to guess, you would have known.

Nick: Right. Yeah. Oh, how does Leah Bonnema feel about buffets? Pro or con? Yeah. No, she's pro.

Leah: I mean, I'm wildly pro.

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we need your etiquette questions. Send them to us. And you've got them. Oh, you've got etiquette questions for us, so send them to us. We would love to see them, and we would love to talk about them on the show.

Leah: Please do! And Nick and I will find fun ways to get worked up for you.

Nick: [laughs] Yes.

Leah: And how to handle it in the most wrong fashion. But then we'll try to move to the right way.

Nick: Yes. I mean, we will try to explore all options, good and bad. Yes. And ultimately, we do hope to land on the correct answer.

Leah: Yes. But it's really fun walking through the wrong ones first.

Nick: Yeah. And no promises that the answers are ever correct.

Leah: No promises. But promises that we try our best.

Nick: Oh, we always try our best. Oh, we bring 110 percent. Absolutely.

Leah: We think about these things in our day-to-day lives.

Nick: Oh, and at night. Some of these things haunt me.

Leah: And at night.

Nick: Yeah. No, they do. So, please send us your questions, and we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So I just want to do a quick cordial of kindness to my—I'm gonna say sister-in-law family, even though I'm not technically married. We all know this is actually 18 years now. We just celebrated 18 years together. So I mean, at a certain point. So my sister-in-law family, Rhianna and Jeff, James and Annalise, who have really—they're on the west coast. They've really taken us in. They've made us feel at home. They're always so good to us. And I just love it so much!

Nick: Oh, very nice! And for me, I want to read a nice review we just got, which is quote, "Keeps getting better. Move over, Miss Manners. The one-two punch that is the Bonnema-Leighton powerhouse is an absolute delight. And they say etiquette is dead. Six stars out of five."

Leah: That's a framer!

Nick: Right? Oh, that's very nice. And so thank you for that. We love nice reviews. They really make our day. So if you have not reviewed our show or want to update a review you've already left for us, please do so, because we see them, and it gives us the validation that I crave.

Leah: I love that so much. It's so nice. I also love the use of our last names together.

Nick: Mm-hmm. I mean, it was noted that it was Bonnema-Leighton rather than Leighton-Bonnema. But we can discuss that.

Leah: I think it's just in alphabetical order.

Nick: Is that what it is? Okay.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: [laughs] But thank you. No matter who comes first, you come first, audience. And so thank you.

Leah: You do come first! Thank you so much. It's really sweet.

Nick: Yeah. We do this for you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we do it for our own mental health, but it's mostly for you all.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So thank you. I really appreciate it.

Leah: Thank you.