Ordering Espresso in Italy, Asking for a Raise, Deflecting Rude Questions, and More

Nick: Do you ask for lattes in Italy? Do you pretend you don't have a phone? Do you ignore personal space in restaurants? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So for today's amuse bouche, Leah, I want to take you back to Italy.

Leah: Oh, I'm so excited to go back.

Nick: And it's been a while. I haven't taken you to our hypothetical Italy in a long time.

Leah: Hypothetically? Has it been since hypothetical gelato?

Nick: Galateo, maybe?

Leah: Oh.

Nick: Have we talked about gelato? I don't think we've had a gelato amuse bouche.

Leah: Well, I know that we've just talked about gelato because you love it.

Nick: Sure. Of course.

Leah: And so I just don't—maybe that wasn't as an amuse bouche, but I just—it looms large to my memory.

Nick: For sure. I love a fior di latte, the purest essence of gelato. But for today, I want to talk about espresso, and how to actually order it and what to keep in mind when you actually want this in Italy, because it's a little different.

Leah: Fantastic. Because I love me some espresso.

Nick: So in Italy, there's a lot of places to drink coffee, but for the purposes of this amuse bouche, I'm thinking of the classic Italian bar. And that's actually what Italians would call a place to get coffee. They would call it a bar. And there'll be an espresso machine on the back counter. There's probably gonna be liquor. There could be sandwiches, pastries. I mean, there's a real big spectrum of what counts as a bar from, like, very casual hole in the wall to, like, very fancy, elegant, and everything in between.

Nick: But we're gonna walk in, and we want coffee. And so the first thing is to figure out, like, where do we pay? And usually there's two choices. There's gonna be a cashier person, and so you pay for your coffee first and then go up to the bar. Or you just go up to the bar. So you just kind of want to figure out, like, oh, which one is it? And usually that's pretty clear, but if it's not, just, like, go up to the bar, and if they don't want to take your order without a receipt first, then they're gonna point you to how this is gonna work. Or they'll take money from you right there.

Nick: Okay, so we have paid somehow, or we will pay. We figured out the money thing. So now we want the espresso. And this takes place at the bar. So we are gonna be standing at the bar and this is where we're going to be enjoying the coffee. And we don't actually order an espresso in Italy. We're gonna just order "un cafe." That is the default setting. A "cafe "is a single shot regular espresso in a little cup. And that's what that is. So all you need to do is just say "Salve," which is kind of a nicer way to say hello, and you ask for un cafe, and then they will give you un cafe. And interestingly, single shots is like the default in Italy. Like, you're not gonna get a double shot unless you specifically ask for it, a doppio. But most Italians, if they wanted more caffeine, they would just go back later for, like, another coffee, a regular coffee.

Nick: Okay, so now let's talk about some variations on the theme. So you can get a decaf, "decaffeinato," or if you want to be cool like the kids, you can call it "undecca."

Leah: Ooh!

Nick: And that's fine. Perfectly acceptable to get a decaf espresso in Italy. You could get a "lungo." That's where they actually pull the shot a little longer, so there's gonna be a little more water in that cup. You could get a "ristretto," and that's where it's really short, like, maybe a 15-second shot. So it's gonna be very thick. That's kind of advanced, but if you really love it, then have at it. There is the "macchiato," which if you're familiar with the caramel macchiato at Starbucks, it is not that.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: This is just—this is just regular espresso that's just marked with just a teeny tiny bit of foam, little milk, just to make it interesting. And you can actually customize that further if you want hot or cold milk. So you could ask for, like, "macchiato caldo" for hot or "macchiato freddo" if you wanted it cold. If you didn't say anything, you'll probably just get some foam on it. And that's delightful. There's the classic cappuccino, which is as you picture it. And then there's the latte.

Nick: Now if you just walk in and ask for a latte, they will give you latte. But "latte" in Italian is the word for milk. And so they will just give you a glass of milk. And so if that's not what you wanted, you have to ask for a "cafe latte." So you have to make sure you add the coffee word with that latte so that you get both of those together. Another pitfall is the Americano. So that's usually my go-to drink. That's espresso with hot water. But in Italy, Americano is actually two different things. So there's the cafe Americano, which is that, espresso with water, but there's also the cocktail Americano, which is campari, vermouth, soda water.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And because as I mentioned, these places have liquor, like, these bars, you know, have coffee and liquor, they will be able to make you an Americano. So they might use context clues, which is like, oh, you're American and it's 8:00 am, so you probably want the coffee version. But not always. And so just be sure you specify, you know, cafe Americano. And speaking of liquor, there is a beverage called the cafe corretto, the corrected coffee, which is espresso that has actually liquor in it. So maybe like a grappa or a sambuca or something else that's sort of regionally popular. And a lot of interesting history, like, where this beverage kind of came from. But if you want to have some liquor with your espresso, like, that's what that is.

Leah: I'm getting such a visual of the cafe bar, and I'm loving the choices.

Nick: And so whatever you've ordered, however you like it, the idea is you drink it where you are. You cannot take this to a table to sit down because, like, that's table service. That's a different thing. Don't do that because you will get an Italian person yelling at you. So you're gonna actually drink it right at the bar. And this is not a linger-y thing. Like, if you just got an espresso, you can probably drink it in under 30 seconds. Like, it's quick, very quick. So just, you know, drink it and get out of there.

Nick: And let's talk about some frequently asked questions. So you may ask, "Why was I given a shot of water with this espresso?" Some places, especially if they're a little fancy, might give you water—sparkling or still—and it's a palate cleanser.

Leah: Hmm.

Nick: And so you drink a little before to cleanse the palate, and then you could drink some afterwards to sort of clear the mouth of the espresso taste if you wanted. So you might get some water, and that's what that is. And you may ask, "Oh, what is that bowl of brown foam?" And what that is is crema de succro. And that's more common in southern Italy, you know, Naples. And what that is is it's actually sugar that's whipped with a lot of air, and espresso is added to that. And they can add it as a dollop on top of your espresso. So instead of, like, you adding sugar, it's actually like this pre-made foamy sugar mix that dissolves better, and it's kind of fun. So you could get that, or they may ask you if that's what you want. And so that's what that is.

Leah: Ugh!

Nick: Right?

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Right?

Leah: That was a good "ugh." That was—by the way, I feel like I hope that was ...

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: You could see my face, but they can't. I hope they know that that was a—that was a good "ugh." Wish I was there right now. Ugh! That sounds amazing.

Nick: Yeah. The first time I encountered that, I was actually in Milan, and I'd never seen that before. And they asked me something in Italian and I didn't know what they were asking me because it was very fast and I hadn't had my coffee yet. And so I just said yes because I was like, let's just go with it. And then they, like, dollop this thing. I was like, what is this thing? And so then I learned. But it turns out that coffee shop was actually a chain from Naples, which is why they do it. It's like, ah, that makes sense. It's your signature. Okay, fine.

Nick: Pastries briefly. You can get a pastry, no problem. They'll just hand it to you and you'll eat it right there at the bar. Okay, great. And you may ask, "How much does coffee in Italy cost?" This is the wildest thing of all! A coffee, like just a classic un café? Probably a euro, maybe a euro-50, maybe two euros if it's real expensive and we're in Milan and it's like the airport. But, like, a euro and change, euro-30, that's kind of the price. And a euro is basically a dollar. So can you imagine having a wonderful shot of espresso for a dollar in the United States? Like, where is that happening?

Leah: Let's get our passports going, Nick.

Nick: We can't have nice things. That's what that means.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So that's it. Yeah. So those are some things to think about next time you're in Italy and you want a coffee. Keep that in mind.

Leah: I love it so much.

Nick: Well, grazie.

Leah: Prego!

Nick: [laughs] Oh, so authentic. Wow. Am I in Milan right now?

Leah: [laughs] Imagine all of a sudden I just pulled up, like, a little cup on a saucer. That would be so perfect. That would be perfect timing if I had it hidden.

Nick: It's just further proof that you never know what the amuse bouches are in advance.

Leah: Yeah. Because if I did know that it was, I would have had that ready just for—just for funsies.

Nick: No, I appreciate the effort. Yeah.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep. And a friend of mine asked me about this and I go, "You know, I think we should get Nick involved."

Nick: [laughs] So for today's question of etiquette, I'm involved, and we're gonna talk about how to ask for a raise.

Leah: I think this is such a great topic.

Nick: Yes, this is a great topic. And so why did I have to get involved?

Leah: [laughs] You know why you had to get involved. Because I—it was like, oh, anxiety. And let's—I'm pretty sure let's quote what you said.

Nick: Oh, don't do that. That's never good.

Leah: I thought it was a good point. You were like, "Was your friend a woman? Because men seem so comfortable asking for what they need."

Nick: Uh, yes. Okay, I did say that. Yes. When Leah proposed this topic, that was my first thought, which I mean, sad that that was my first thought, but I think there's some truth to that.

Leah: No, I—it's very true, which is why I repeated it, because I also just saw this thing, I don't know if you saw it going around, how statistically in therapy, women are, like, learning how to set boundaries and speak up for what they want. And statistically, men in therapy are, like, having to learn how to listen to other people's needs.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Okay.

Leah: And so it's—I thought this was a great example of that because you're like, "Ah, this should be—" You know, but I definitely find it anxiety producing being like, you know, I should be getting—or knowing your worth and asking for more and ...

Nick: Right.

Leah: You know, especially I think New Englanders, men and women were all raised with this idea of, like, don't ask for stuff, just keep working hard.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: You know, hard work is rewarded on its own.

Nick: Well, I think there's a lot of cultures where this is maybe more difficult than others, for sure. So I guess if you're feeling like the Maine-ness in you makes this hard, then I guess that makes sense.

Leah: I think it's definitely very true, but it's not true that, like, good work is just acknowledged. Like, you have to speak up for yourself.

Nick: So—okay, so let's look at this through the lens of etiquette. Because there's a lot of different lenses. I mean, there's like, the HR lens, and there's the therapy lens, and there's the—all sorts of different lenses available. But at least for our lane, I guess, how can we use etiquette principles here? How do we apply them? And so I guess the first thought I had is just that it is normal. This is a normal thing to actually want to ask for a raise. Like, this is not unusual. Bosses expect it. And so I think if we just come at it with that attitude, which is like, "Oh no, this is fine. I'm not doing something that's, like, totally out of left field here. This is a very normal thing I'm about to embark on." So that might help set a baseline.

Leah: Yeah. That actually—when I hear that, that always helps me. "This is what people do."

Nick: Yeah, people do. Yeah, of course. And with a lot of etiquette, timing is everything. And so I think we want to be thoughtful about the timing of this request. And so, you know, is it a month after the last time you asked for a raise? Maybe not the timing. Or did the company you work for just announce, like, horrible financial results? Maybe, like, today's not the day. Or you know your boss is going through something this week, like, oh, let's maybe not pull them aside. So I think we want to ask ourselves, like, is now the right timing?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And then I guess if you decide it is, then I think we want to just come prepared, which is also an etiquette rule, which is like, let's do our homework. You know, what are other people being paid at the company? Do you know? What is the company's salary structure like? What are other people paid at other companies that do what you do? Did you just get a bunch of new responsibilities this year, but your compensation didn't change? Like, you kind of want to be armed with some facts. And I think before we even schedule that meeting, I think we want to be ready.

Leah: So we're scheduling a meeting and we're saying it in person.

Nick: I think these are usually in person. Or Zoom. Yeah? Because I think it—it's a bit of a conversation.

Leah: Right.

Nick: And I think it is a dialogue. And I think that's also an etiquette point, which is like, there are different outcomes here. One is yes, you get the raise you asked for; we totally agree. There's the definitely not in any circumstances. There's the maybe, but maybe not now, but maybe at some point in the future or after something happens or some conversation. And I think it is easier to sort of have those three conversations when it's actually a conversation. It's kind of hard to do this over email.

Leah: But there's also the situation where, like, somebody emails you if it's you're, like, more like a freelancer, and they email you and they say, "Hey, can you do this job for this?" And then it's not really an in office thing. You're like, "But I could do it for this."

Nick: Oh, yes. Well, yeah, I guess in that circumstance, I think you're free to be like, "Unfortunately, I can't do it for that number. Would this number work for you?" And then yeah, you could write that back. Although I feel like with a lot of money conversations, I really like to have these conversations over the phone. I really prefer not to negotiate numbers over email personally.

Leah: So just be like, "Hey, let's hop on the phone. Talk—chat about it."

Nick: Yeah, let's just jump on a call real quick to chat. Because also I want to get a sense when I'm negotiating is, like, how far do I think I can push them? Or, like, where is their bottom line? Or is it just about numbers for them, or is there something else? Because a lot of these negotiations, it's not always just about the dollars. There could be other factors in play. And so you just get a better idea of what those might be in that phone call. Because also, then you could also ask or clarify. Like if you hear, like, "Oh, we can't give you a raise," but, you know, maybe they leave it open to the idea of, like, well, what else can we do for you? You know?

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Nick: Maybe we can give you more vacation time or, you know, maybe we can let you have Fridays off, or I mean, whatever it is. And when it's email, it can be a little cut and dry, and sometimes you want a little more nuance.

Leah: Right. Right, right.

Nick: Right? I always like phone calls, though, for negotiation, personally. I think maybe I'm old fashioned. I feel like a lot of it's happening over text. Actually, I know somebody who bought a house entirely over text. Like, their brokers just, like, did the deal over text messages.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: Which to me feels like, oh, how modern. Yeah, I don't know. When money's involved, I kind of like to have that conversation. But I mean, you do you. Whatever you want to be comfortable with. I mean, as long as you're happy with the outcome, like, it doesn't matter how we get there. But I think we always want to be polite and direct. So if it's email or it's a phone call, we want to be polite about it, but we also want to be direct. I think we just have to straight up ask, "Hey, I'm doing this job. I have some new responsibilities. I would love to chat about how we can make my compensation better align with my current responsibilities." Or some variation on that theme.

Leah: Yeah. No, I love that statement.

Nick: Right? And whatever happens, I think we thank the person for their time and be polite about it. Like, "Thank you for considering this. I appreciate it." And yeah, we just want to, like, say thanks.

Leah: And I do think what you're saying, it's like, it's such good practice to be like, "You know what? I'm just gonna jump on the phone. I'm just gonna ask for a meeting." I'm not gonna add—speaking from my own—from my point of view, from the kind of person I am. I like the way of looking at it this way, because you're like, I'm not gonna add a whole bunch of feelings on this. I'm gonna look at it from an etiquette perspective. It's normal people ask. This is—I did the research, I'm presenting it. We're gonna see how it goes. Boom, boom.

Nick: Also, it's business.

Leah: It's business.

Nick: And it's business etiquette, which is kind of—it doesn't have that same emotional charge as social etiquette. If this was a social thing, then oh, totally different rules involved. But it's just business. Yeah, it's just business. And Letitia Baldrige of the etiquette gurus to read if you wanted some guidance, she would be the one to go to. She was really big on executive manners. And so etiquette in the workplace, that's your go to guru for more on this.

Leah: Check in with Letitia.

Nick: Yeah. Tish. Yeah. She's got your back! Assuming she hasn't, like, dropped food on the floor and tries to serve it to you. Call back!

Leah: Doesn't matter. You'd never know. It was in the kitchen.

Nick: Oh, you would know. Come on. You would know. So do you think this is helpful to your friend or no?

Leah: I think this is very helpful.

Nick: Okay, good. All right, well, so that's asking for a raise.

Leah: There it is. Done.

Nick: Do it.

Leah: Tied up with a bow by Nicholas Leighton.

Nick: And if you get that raise, then we will take 10 percent.

Leah: Wow! 10 percent! Wow, wow, wow!

Nick: Too much? Too little. No, I'm not gonna undersell us. We want—now we want 50.

Leah: I think we all want Nicholas Leighton doing our negotiations.

Nick: I mean, I'll do it. I actually would. Yeah. You want me to call your boss and negotiate? Delighted to.

Leah: I will let her know.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm sure that'll go over real great with this boss. "Hey, instead of me having a conversation with you about my compensation, I'm gonna bring in a stranger."

Leah: "I'm just gonna bring in a stranger real quick."

Nick: "All right, Nick, take it away."

Leah: "Take it away, Nick."

Nick: "Conferencing you in, Nick, Everybody on the line?"

Leah: How about we just give one of those things where it's like you're an informant. They're an informant, and you are the person who's telling them words so they get one of those little earpieces.

Nick: Oh, is this a Cyrano de Bergerac situation?

Leah: [laughs] You just tell them all the lines.

Nick: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I could Cyrano salary compensation conversation. Let's do it.

Leah: How fun. How fun!

Nick: Oh, that's a new term. Okay, great.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I have known many people who will approach me with, 'Can I ask you something,' or 'Can I ask a question?' Now I'm not talking about a spouse, boss or best friend, someone who has reason to ease into a necessary or direct conversation. No, I'm talking about acquaintances or distant relatives. That lead in is almost inevitably followed with a super rude question like, 'Does it bother you that your child is majoring in dance?' Or, 'Why did you choose to dye your hair that color?' Is there any way I can politely head off these questions at the pass? I obviously can't say no when someone requests to ask a question. Or if there's no way to avoid rude questions, how can I respond to them? I guess the 'Can I ask you a question' folks are at least giving me a heads up so I can try to remember the back-pocket response once I have it."

Leah: I mean, you can say no. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I don't know if that's off the table. Yeah.

Leah: I have done it.

Nick: Yeah. And when I do it, I kind of give a—is 'withering' the right word? This is how I would do it. Let's—let's demo it. Ask me if you can ask me a question.

Leah: Can I ask you a question?

Nick: No.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So yeah, that would be the tone I would use for that. Yeah. "No."

Leah: You see these people come. You know what the question is by the look on their face.

Nick: Oh, of course. Yeah.

Leah: I've said to people, no, and I'd say, "I'd prefer not." I said—I've said, "I prefer not."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then I've also said, "Not if it's mean." And I say it, like, kind of funny.

Nick: Yeah. I think that's not a bad approach. Yeah, something that's a little light, which is like, "You can ask, but I don't have to answer."

Leah: Yeah. And then if you go, "Not if it's mean," and then they say something that is mean, you're like, "Well, that's kind of mean."

Nick: " Sorry!" Yeah, I guess—all right. So you're like, "Sure, you can ask me a question," and then it's something super rude, then I think we just go back to our regular back-pocket sentences. You know, things like, "Oh, that's interesting."

Leah: Yeah. "So interesting that you think it's okay to ask me that."

Nick: "Yes, my hair color suits me. I'm sorry you don't feel the same."

Leah: I do personally like just telling them not to ask.

Nick: It is easier. Yes. But back-pocket sentences, you know, "I don't think about it that way." Or of course, there's my favorite, which is, "Thank you for your concern. I'm fine."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And also, it's important to note that it is not your obligation to answer direct questions directly. You can answer a question that they didn't ask. So if they ask you, like, "Oh, are you okay with your child majoring in dance?" You could say, like, "Thank you for your concern. I'm fine." It's not a direct answer to that question. But, like, I feel like it does answer the question.

Leah: And I think it's also important to know that these people are asking everybody these questions. Like, these people are out there running rampant with their rude questions. So I think if we just start blocking them with either a, "I'm good," or with the back-pocket sentences, after they've asked the questions, we could just start throwing them up.

Nick: But I think what is actually very interesting about this type of person is that they feel like when you preface, that this is somehow a get-out-of-etiquette-jail-free card.

Leah: Yes. Yes.

Nick: And that somehow whatever follows that preface is now immune from any etiquette consequences. And it's like, no, that is not how that works.

Leah: Not at all.

Nick: At all. No. Like, these are the same people who say, like, "Well, with all due respect." And then the thing that follows that is not respectful.

Leah: It's like if you were like, "Can I come over. Can I come in?" I let you in and then you completely trash my house and you're like, "Oh, but you said I could come in."

Nick: [laughs] Right. Right. "So it's not my fault that I trash your house."

Leah: It's your fault.

Nick: You invited me here.

Leah: You invited me to do this.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's that get-out-of-etiquette-jail-free-card approach, which yeah, it is maddening because I think a lot of people do feel like a preface does inoculate them and it does not.

Leah: You are not inoculated.

Nick: I don't know if that goes on a pillow, but we'll workshop that.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But yeah, don't think prefaces get you out of messes. They do not.

Leah: I also think this is a great time to just stare in somebody's face. "Mmm."

Nick: Yeah. I mean, a non answer is an answer.

Leah: And with a "Mmm."

Nick: Oh, yeah. I like a good "Mmm. Mmm, mmm, mmm."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that works too. Yeah. I think back-pocket sentences are just back-pocket grunts.

Leah: [laughs] Yeah. Just a whole bunch of "Oh. Oh."

Nick: "Oh."

Leah: I've had people go, "Can I ask you a question?" And I go, "No." And then they ask the question anyway.

Nick: Oh, that's also true. Yeah, I don't actually think your response matters to them.

Leah: They're plowing through you. They're just saying.

Nick: Yeah. No, they just want to preface it because they feel like in some legal loophole contract, like, "Oh well, I said it, so you can't be mad now." And it's sort of like, oh, that's not how etiquette jail works.

Leah: I think it would be fun if we all started sort of overreacting, or giving the reaction that's actually deserved. Like, when people say something like that and then we just, like, fall to the floor and go, "Ugh!"

Nick: [laughs] I mean, I—yeah, I like that idea. Or a reaction could just be like, "How dare you! I say good day!"

Leah: "I say good day."

Nick: And they're like, "No, no, no, no." And it's like, "I said good day." [laughs] I really want to bring that back.

Leah: Let's all work on it—myself included. We're all gonna try to work it in, get it out there for Nick.

Nick: Next time there's an argument you have with somebody and you want to end it, I want you to end with, "I said good day."

Leah: "I said good day, sir!"

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, I feel like that really actually would be really interesting.

Leah: Let's get wild.

Nick: Let's get wild and wish people good day.

Leah: Let's get wild and wish people good days at the end of our argument. That way we—we remained lovely.

Nick: So our next question is quote ...

Leah: Wait, I had one more idea.

Nick: Uh, oh. Okay. But I said, "Good day," Leah. I said, "Good day."

Leah: I have an idea.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Let's practice. You ask me if I'm okay with my kid take—majoring in dance.

Nick: Okay. Leah, can I ask you a question?

Leah: I guess.

Nick: So are you okay with your child majoring in dance?

Leah: Can I ask you a question?

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Have you ever listened to the podcast Were You Raised By Wolves?

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Because I think you would highly benefit from it.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, I don't know if that's etiquette approved, but I love it. I'll take the marketing. Sure.

Leah: [laughs] I think it's etiquette approved.

Nick: But I love the, "Can I ask you a question?" Turning it around. I think that's actually not bad.

Leah: "Can I ask you a question? Do you think that's a nice question?"

Nick: Yeah, I think you could say something in that flavor, which is like, "Why is that important to you?" Or, "Do you think that came across the way you intended?"

Leah: Yes, I would say that. "I could ask you how do you think that comes across?"

Nick: Right? Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of interesting. I mean, do you want to engage, though? That's always the question.

Leah: Yeah, the question is do you want to engage or do you want to save your energy? Sometimes you want to engage. Sometimes it's worth a fall on the floor with a grunt.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, who are you that day?

Leah: Who are you that day?

Nick: Are you a follower and a grunter or are you an engager? You know, do whatever feels right.

Leah: Or are you just, "I don't have that. I'm walking away."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Do what feels good.

Nick: "Good day."

Leah: And you say, "Good day!"

Nick: [laughs] So our next question is quote, "When someone asks for your phone number but you don't want to share it, how do you get out of providing it? Once someone asks, it seems impossible to say, 'Oh, I don't have a phone,' or, 'I don't give out my number.' The only solution seems to be giving it. I work in HR, and I don't always want people having my number because it sometimes gets me into situations in which I shouldn't be involved. Any advice?"

Leah: Oh, this happens to me all the time and I always feel uncomfortable, but I say, "Oh, I prefer to communicate through Instagram."

Nick: Bingo. Yes, I think that's the perfect thing. Like, whatever your preferred means is, like, "Oh, I'm much better on email. Let me give you my email address." Like, "Oh, I don't even look at my phone."

Leah: What's a phone?

Nick: What is a phone? Yes.

Leah: And then just plow through. Give them the email.

Nick: Yeah, then give them the email. Great. I guess if the idea of digits is really important, then get a burner number. You know, get a—get a Google voice number. I have one. I definitely have one, and I use it because my regular phone, my cell phone is a (212) cell phone. And if you've lived in New York, you know that's really special.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: That's really special. And it would kill me if my number got out, and I wasn't able to use it and I had to change my number. But who actually even knows what anybody's phone number is? Like, I don't know what your phone number is, Leah.

Leah: That's such a lie. You do, too.

Nick: Well, I mean, it's in my phone, but it's not like I know your number. I have your number. Or do I? Did you give me a burner?

Leah: Yeah, you have a burner.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: You're texting me at 3:00 am on a burner and I'm responding about Love Island.

Nick: I mean, it's 6:00 am East Coast time. [laughs] Also, I know that you don't have your phone on, so I know that I can text you day or night about Love Island and it's fine.

Leah: It is. It's totally fine. And I enjoy it.

Nick: Right. And I know if it's anything business related, I send it to you via email so you're emotionally prepared for that.

Leah: No, I'm glad that we got to this point after five years.

Nick: No. Yeah, after five years, I know that this is your deal. That's great. Yeah. Text is just for Love Island content, and then everything else is email.

Leah: Whereas Nick, you can text him anything.

Nick: Yeah, you can text me anything at any time. Correct. And I'll either get to it or I won't. Yeah. But for you, dear letter-writer, yeah. I think you can just say, "Hey, email is best for me." And if they really push it, you could be like, "I really reserve my phone for personal use. I'm sure you understand."

Leah: "I'm sure you understand."

Nick: "I'm sure you understand. "Yes. So yeah, I think that's how I'd handle it.

Leah: This lady walking a dog ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... who, you know, your dogs talk. They meet. You know, you interact on the street.

Nick: Your dogs talk?

Leah: Yeah, of course they do.

Nick: Wow! They grow up so fast. Okay.

Leah: [laughs] Our dogs were, like, making friends, and then she wanted to get my phone number. I didn't know this woman.

Nick: Yeah. I would prefer a Instagram exchange on that.

Leah: Yeah. And I mean, I said, "Oh, I prefer, you know, social media." And she really was like, "I would like to get your number." And I had to, like, double down on it. I was shocked. I had to be like, "Oh, I'm not giving out my number." But I was—it was the first time ever that anybody was ever like, "No, that's not how I want to communicate with you, person I just met."

Nick: Yeah. I think the idea, "I prefer Instagram" is not "I prefer." It's, "I only use."

Leah: Yeah, "I only use." But she didn't read that room.

Nick: She didn't read that room. Yeah. Okay. Well, you gotta set a boundary. And I don't think you should feel guilty about that.

Leah: I did. I didn't feel guilty. I felt weird.

Nick: Yeah, but she's the weird one. Classic. Classic etiquette crime, where they make you feel like you did the wrong thing.

Leah: I told my dogs. I was like, "We are not walking in this street again."

Nick: Right. Yeah. Now you probably don't wanna actually, like, hang out with this person because she's, like, has no boundaries.

Leah: No boundaries!

Nick: So you out there, do you have questions for us? Oh, yes, you do! Send them to us. Send them to us through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message—and we'll give you our number. It's (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm gonna repent.

Nick: Okay. Is it a good one? Is it a fake one? What—what has happened?

Leah: It's a—I'm not doing fake ones. It's a good one, Nick. And the only thing that made me feel okay about realizing this mortifying thing that I did was I thought, "Thank goodness I got something for the segment, because I'm letting Nick down."

Nick: You are, with your perfect little life.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: All right, so what has happened?

Leah: Okay, so I know I'm gonna get judged very harshly. I recognize this is ...

Nick: I would never!

Leah: You would. And you would voice it.

Nick: I already am.

Leah: I—so about I would say two months ago, so I already know it's been too long. I'm out with a friend who doesn't live here.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I don't have the right outfit for the thing that's going on.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: She goes, "You can borrow my shorts."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I say, "Thank you so much."

Nick: Great.

Leah: I borrow the shorts.

Nick: I see where this is going.

Leah: I know you—I know you already know. I'm just giving you leeway so you can swallow back your judgment of me because I'm already ashamed. I say at the end of the date, I say, "Hey, let me wash your shorts."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: "'ll send them to you."

Nick: Very kind.

Leah: I come home, I immediately wash the shorts. Immediately.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I fold them up, they're ready to go.

Nick: Wow.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: [laughs] And here we are.

Leah: And then I remembered a couple weeks later, oh, I haven't sent the shorts.

Nick: Gotta do that.

Leah: I text her, I apologize. I go, "I'm in it. I apologize. They're clean, they're ready for you." She says, "No problem. It's not shorts weather anymore." I go, "I'm on it."

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: Yesterday I realized they were still in my to-do pile. [laughs]

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: I'm a horrible, horrible person. I texted her and I go, "I'm horrible. I don't deserve your friendship. They are coming to you this week."

Nick: What would it take to actually get this done?

Leah: You know, 9,000 things not happening at once. But this week I decided it doesn't matter. I'm not gonna handle the other things first. I'm gonna get this done first.

Nick: We're gonna prioritize this. Yes.

Leah: We're gonna prioritize this. I already dropped the ball. They're going out this week.

Nick: I mean, do we have stamps at home for shorts?

Leah: These are heavy shorts. These are—I got to take it somewhere.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I'm repenting. I'm—and this is bad. This is bad. I borrowed something, somebody lent me something and I haven't returned it. This is—I would put this up there.

Nick: Does he—I mean, in the grand scheme of things this is very mild, but ...

Leah: I mean, it's not. I borrowed and I haven't returned.

Nick: Okay. Well, I mean, two—two months. Not great. But we'll get it done. Now is it just returning it and that's all we're doing? I feel like we have to send something with the shorts now.

Leah: Oh, I'm getting a card. It's like a funny card.

Nick: No, I think we need something else. We need something local because she's not from here. So I think we need something Los Angeles-y. So I think we need some Silver Lake honey. We need some artisanal chocolate bar from Santa Monica. Like, I think we need to just add one item to it.

Leah: Let me tell you right now, these shorts are never getting out if I'm gonna—if I got to pick a gift.

Nick: [laughs] That's a fair point. Okay. Let's just ...

Leah: I can't do that. I agree with you, something should go with it. But the amount of time it's gonna take me to figure out what the right thing is ...

Nick: Send me her address. I will send you a prepaid shipping label that you can print out, and I'll take care of the postage for you.

Leah: What?

Nick: And then you can just drop it off at the post office without having to wait in line. Or your local UPS dropbox. Whatever shipping service you would like. You pick, and I'll just send you the shipping label so we can get this done. It takes a village.

Leah: Well, how do you know how much it weighs?

Nick: I will either just overshoot it. I will take a pair of shorts from my house and weigh those for reference. Or if you have a scale at home, maybe like a cooking scale, perhaps for baking, you could give me a weight.

Leah: Nick, you're such a prince.

Nick: We gotta get this done. Yeah. We can't have you just wafting bad etiquette behind you.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So let me help you with that.

Leah: I appreciate your deep generosity.

Nick: Uh-huh? So for me, I would like to vent. And so I was on the Lower East Side, and I wanted a quick dinner before I was heading back home. And so I thought, "Oh, it's kind of a chilly night. Oh, it feels like a ramen night. Oh, let's have ramen." And so I went to kind of a popular ramen place, and I got a seat at the bar. They have, like, counter seating, and I thought, "Okay, great." And the style of ramen I prefer is, of course, gonna be very specific. [laughs] There's this place in Fukuoka I was actually at not too long ago, and their deal is that you go in and they actually give you a booth. You have, like, a solo booth for your ramen, where there's, like, walls on either side of you. And it's very small. And right in front of you, like a couple inches away, is, like, a little curtain. And a hand will come through the curtain and give you the ramen.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: There's no eye contact involved.

Leah: Wow!

Nick: You're just, like, basically eating ramen with a wall. And they want you to concentrate on the ramen. They don't want you to be distracted by the ramen. They want you to have a solo ramen experience. And so they have, like, solo booths for this. And I was even reading, I think they have some system where if you put a certain plate down in a certain way, there's something in the table that actually creates a special chime that signals to the wait staff that you want extra noodles. And so you can actually just do that without even actually having to interact with anybody to bring you noodles.

Leah: Wow!

Nick: I know. It's the best! And so I love a good no-eye-contact ramen experience. This was not that. And so here I am on the Lower East Side. I'm having ramen, and the gentleman next to me was manspreading his elbows so wide. And is it still manspreading when it's your elbows? What's the term for that?

Leah: I think it's manspreading.

Nick: It's manspreading. And we all know that there is the invisible dotted line that exists between all of us. And he was so far over that line. So far! He was so into my personal space that I could not eat this ramen without bumping my elbow into his. I was eating this ramen like Tyrannosaurus Rex.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: My arms were so tight against my body, like, squeezing my ribs so tight. And it is really hard to use chopsticks in this way. Like, you try right now. Shove your elbows right into your ribcage and hold your hands four inches apart stiffly, and you try to eat some ramen out of a bowl with chopsticks and get that to your mouth. Let me know how that goes. No, not very easy. And so I accidentally bumped his elbow the first time. I was like, "Oh, okay. It's tight. It's New York City." And I was like, "Okay, clearly that will solve this problem." Most of the time when you accidentally bump somebody in public, everybody gives each other a little space. That's not what happened here. He kept his elbow in my zone!

Leah: Oh!

Nick: It affected his behavior zero. Made no difference. And—you know, and there was somebody very close to me on the other side, and I didn't want to get into their zone, so I was really trapped. I was really trapped in this ramen corset. I don't know what we call this, but it was really unpleasant. The ramen was tasty but, like, I didn't get to concentrate, enjoy it, contemplate it. It was, like, very utilitarian. Just eat it and get out of there.

Leah: It's almost like you needed to fling a noodle on him.

Nick: I mean, tempting. Very tempting. Like, oopsie daisy!

Leah: "Oh, sorry. You're just so close!"

Nick: "Sorry! Oh, goodness. Oh." Yeah, it was really unpleasant. So personal space, I guess it is an art.

Leah: Don't make Nick T. Rex.

Nick: Don't make me eat like T. Rex. Really. Yeah, don't make me do that. Not a fan.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Oh, I learned—I feel like I learned a full coffee menu.

Nick: Yes, you are well equipped to order espresso in Italy.

Leah: I'm very excited. It's on my—I really want to—we're going. We're moving. We're gonna start. We're gonna open a podcast studio there.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. And I learned that for all of your boundary-setting issues, you have no problem telling people, "No, I will not answer your question."

Leah: Yes. Absolutely none.

Nick: How refreshing!

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want you to really consider joining us on Patreon. It makes a huge difference for us, and we got a lot of fun stuff happening over there, and I think you'd really like it. So please check it out, and see if it's something you'd like to do.

Leah: We would so appreciate it.

Nick: We would. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So somebody got a hold of my credit card and, you know, it's like, such a thing. You gotta shut it down. You gotta set up fraud alerts. You gotta be like, "That wasn't me." Then you gotta get a new card. And then everywhere that has your card, you have to be like, "It's coming!" So I was at my Pilates studio, and I was like, "Hey, I know my account's about to be charged. I don't have a new card yet." And then I went through the whole saga of what was going on. And then as that happened, this person came in and delivered—they're like their new partner. They're, like, partnering with a food company, and they delivered all this food. And they were like, "Why don't we give it to Leah? She had such a hard week."

Nick: Oh, that's nice!

Leah: Isn't that so nice? And then I just got all these, like, amazingly cooked, delicious and nutritious meals.

Nick: Oh, how nice!

Leah: I literally almost cried. I was like, "This is so sweet! Thank you so much!"

Nick: Very nice.

Leah: Isn't that so nice? I mean, it carried me through. You know those days where you're like, "I can't. It's just too much."

Nick: All it takes is a sensible portion of brown rice, broccoli and a protein. Who knew?

Leah: That and/or a person just being like, "Oh, here's something." And then it changes your whole day, which changes your whole life. So I'm so grateful.

Nick: Yeah. No,consideration does make a difference. Weird. And for me, I want to say thank you to William Hanson. He's the guru in the UK, and he was in New York this week and he wanted to do lunch. And I was like, "Let's do lunch. How fun!" And so he has a new book, and I actually asked him to sign it. And so I kind of embarrassed him in the restaurant by making him autograph my book. And it was super fun. It was such a fun lunch because yeah, who else do I get to sort of, like, gossip with about the etiquette world? And so it was really fun. So thank you, William. I had a lovely lunch with you, and hope to see you next time we're both in the same city.

Leah: I love it!

Nick: Yeah, super fun.