Numbering Floors, Making Others Uncomfortable, Picking Teeth in Public, and More

Nick: Do you go to the wrong floor? Do you make people a little too comfortable? Do you pick your teeth at the table? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Oh, let's get in it!

Nick: So Leah, let me take you on a little journey.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: So you're on the street, you're on the sidewalk, and you're about to enter a building. Building of your choice. Please enter the building.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: Where are you? Paint the scene. What kind of building did you pick?

Leah: I don't know why I picked this, but it's just what I saw, so I went with it. I had a revolving door.

Nick: Okay. All right.

Leah: And it was a single person revolving door. There wasn't enough room for more.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: And for some reason, the building is a gray. It's a gray, but then it's very—it's a very nicely decorated waiting area.

Nick: Lovely. So Leah, what floor are you on?

Leah: I'm probably on the first floor.

Nick: Okay. And let's just take the stairs and let's just go up one flight of stairs. Where are we now?

Leah: We're on the second floor.

Nick: Right. Okay. Welcome to America. Your building is in America. And so long story short, this amuse bouche is about things that exist in the world. And this is ripped from the headlines of my life. I was recently in London, and I'd just flown in, dropped off my bags at the hotel, and then I went right to a bar to meet a friend who was flying in from Sydney that same day. So everybody is jet lagged. And I get to the bar, and I find a cozy spot on the third floor, and I text my friend, I was like, "Hey, I'm on the third floor." He gets there and he's like, "I'm on the third floor. I don't see you." I'm like, "Oh, I'm in the corner over here." He's like, "I don't see you." I'm like, "I'm on the third floor." He's like, "I'm on the third floor." It turns out I was on the second floor, because in the UK that's the second floor, and Australian people followed that tradition as well.

Nick: And so the floor numbering thing does get me every time. Every time I travel it—it always catches me off guard. And so I just want to highlight that this is a thing that exists in the world, so that you're mindful of it when you leave the United States, or if you come to the United States from abroad that, like, oh, floor numbering, it is different.

Leah: So it starts at zero.

Nick: So yes, it starts at zero, or they would call it the ground floor.

Leah: Ground floor. Coming in at the ground floor.

Nick: And you do sometimes see zero in an elevator if there are, like, basement floors which would be negative one, negative two.

Leah: Mmm.

Nick: So UK, they do this where, like, it's a ground floor and then first floor above that. Continental Europe, similar. Although Eastern Europe tends to be more of how Russia does it, which is the same way we do it. And then when you cut to Asia, it's mostly the way we do it, except in Hong Kong, Macau, they do it the European way because I think that's a little more colonial. Australia, of course, they do it the British way—although a little variation there. But it is a little confusing. It is a little confusing.

Leah: That is so good to know because I'm sure it will come up at some point, and I will not understand why I'm—why we're not finding each other on the floor.

Nick: Yeah. No, it's an Abbott and Costello routine.

Leah: Who's on third? I'm on third! No, you're on second.

Nick: [laughs] Right! No, exactly. And I was trying to find an explanation for, like, how did this come to be? Like, how do we have two very different systems in the world, because it feels like the way we do it—and we're biased because, like, of course the way we do it is correct, but it does feel like the way we do it does make more sense because we don't count from zero. Like, if I'm counting, oh, how many apples do I have? It's one, two, three apples. I don't start from zero apples, right?

Leah: Right. If you were like, "Do 10 push ups," I'm not doing 11 because I counted zero.

Nick: [laughs] And there's no year zero, right? So there's that.

Leah: I mean, once we dump that tea, we redid the whole system.

Nick: Exactly. We don't need your system.

Leah: [laughs] We don't need your zero.

Nick: But one explanation I have heard is that historically, in Europe especially, it was not uncommon for, like, livestock, grain, who knows what, to be on the ground floor. And then the first floor that you built, that you cared about, where you lived, that was the first floor. And so that may be an explanation for why this numbering scheme sort of, like, happened in Europe.

Leah: A) I love that, and B) I could absolutely see this as a blueprint for my future. I would love to build a house where I had livestock on the first floor.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And then—or the ground floor.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And then I'm on the first floor, so at night I can be like, "Am I hearing my cattle lowing?"

Nick: Yeah, I think this sounds charming. I can't wait to come to your house and see your cows.

Leah: I mean, honestly, like, dream. Obviously there will be goats there too.

Nick: That's the dream. That's the dream. To live above a barn. That's what we want.

Leah: No, I would technically be in the barn. I'm just on the first floor. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I would want them in my home to protect them at nighttime.

Nick: Oh, I see. Okay, sure. That's very conscientious.

Leah: I don't want people coming after my goats.

Nick: Yeah. No, that's not a world I want to live in.

Leah: I think you would enjoy it. At first you'd be like, "Oh, there are—there's cattle in here?" And then you'd be like, "Oh, Leah, that's so cute!" And I'd be like, "Right?"

Nick: I like a fresh cheese.

Leah: I'd be like, "Do you want some fresh milk?" And you'd be like, "Yes," and I'd just run downstairs.

Nick: I mean, okay. Yeah.

Leah: How delightful!

Nick: Totally delightful. Leah Bonnema's farm.

Leah: [laughs] Honestly, this is a dream now.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: This is on the board.

Nick: Another explanation I have heard is that poetically, there is a sense that when you enter a building, it's about where you're going. So I'm starting at zero and I'm going to one. It's sort of like a directional sort of thing. So I'm on the zero area. I haven't gone anywhere yet, but I'm going places. I'm going up the number scale, I'm going to one. And so there's this idea that, like, it's almost like age. Like, we start at zero. Our first birthday is not when we're born, we become one after a full year. So we become the first floor resident.

Leah: I do get it because I could switch my thinking to it because you're on the ground when you come in. I haven't left street level.

Nick: Right. And in the United States, ground floor, first floor, we're happy with these words. It's when we go up a flight where things get complicated.

Leah: It is. Yeah. It's the—it's just that that's the second one.

Nick: Yeah. It's the second floor because I'm on a floor already when I enter a building. That is a floor, I'm not suspended in mid-air.

Leah: I guess that is the perfect analogy. It's like a baby.

Nick: Right.

Leah: We come out at zero, and then we are up to one year. That's our first birthday.

Nick: Right. So I guess are buildings like age or are buildings static places that exist and are timeless?

Leah: Because in America we do not age.

Nick: We never age, no.

Leah: We just get blonder.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: That's what my friend told me about Los Angeles. "Welcome to Los Angeles, where nobody ages, we just get blonder." And I laughed so hard.

Nick: I mean, she's not wrong.

Leah: I just had a great visual of myself completely blond in the second floor above a barn.

Nick: I mean, put it on the wishboard.

Leah: Done. Moo.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Baa!

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep, and it seems like something a lot of us complain about.

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about the idea of making other people feel comfortable. And it has often been said—I'm sure we've said it many times—that a lot of etiquette is about making other people feel comfortable. And that's true, but it's not always true. And so let's talk about, like, oh, when is this not true?

Leah: And I think there's two parts of this, but I do think the response is the same and the feeling is from the same place.

Nick: Mmm.

Leah: And that is when somebody says something rude to you.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: Like, comments on you, says something rude, or when somebody asks you something, to do something that them asking is inappropriate. Like, it's—it puts you in a bad position. Like, they shouldn't have asked, and then you feel uncomfortable. And I think that those are two separate things, but they're both coming from the same place, and the response would be the same.

Nick: Right.

Leah: It's that the idea that them asking or saying makes you feel like you're being rude when you have boundaries.

Nick: Right? And so some rude thing has happened. And so now the question is your response. So if we always follow the rule that you must always make somebody feel comfortable, then you would have to make this person who did something rude feel comfortable in this moment. Like, "Oh, rude person. I know you did something rude, but I don't want to make you feel bad about that. And so I'm going to accommodate in some way and make you feel better about the rude thing you just did. Like, I'm not gonna put you on the spot. I'm not gonna call out your rudeness. I'm not gonna make this awkward." And so if that was always the rule, you always have to make everybody feel comfortable all the time, well then that's sort of an insane thing. And so it is not the rule. You do not always have to make everybody feel comfortable when they do a bad thing. Somebody does a bad thing, you can call them out, put them on the spot, make it awkward.

Leah: Make it awkward.

Nick: Yeah. Like, I mean, your go-to, you just look deep into their eyes, give them a dead look.

Leah: Yeah, it makes people uncomfortable.

Nick: Right. And this is allowed. This is one of those occasions when you're allowed to make somebody feel uncomfortable. Yeah, this is like an etiquette loophole.

Leah: And I think it feels so freeing to realize, like, I don't constantly have to make everybody feel okay all the time if they've made me feel uncomfortable.

Nick: Yeah, exactly. And Miss Manners actually has a fun quote, like, when somebody is, like, saying, "Oh, are you pregnant?" She says that this is an occasion when you do not have to actually go out of your way to comfort others. And she suggests you say back, like, "Oh, you're mistaken about me. How far along are you?" Which, like, oh, that would make somebody feel a little uncomfortable because, like, what a weird thing to say. But, like, you could say it, it's etiquette approved.

Leah: Or you could go, "Wow, rude!"

Nick: Uh, maybe a little too far. You don't want to call ...

Leah: You think it's too far? Is it too far?

Nick: "Wow, rude?" Uh, I mean, I'm good up to the wow part. "Wow!"

Leah: Well, that was the first part.

Nick: [laughs] But then when you say the word "rude," hmm, I don't know. You'd really have to land it. It's hard to land that.

Leah: How about if you just stare? Can we go back to the stare?

Nick: Staring is good. Yeah. Yeah, because that makes people feel uncomfortable.

Leah: Because I often don't want to participate in the entire—like I'm angry that I'm being forced to participate.

Nick: Right.

Leah: Which I was actually telling you about this right before we started recording, this text engagement I got involved in.

Nick: Right.

Leah: There was a group—and I was like, I don't want to—the fact that I now have to answer this question is ...

Nick: Yes.

Leah: ... making me upset. I don't want to.

Nick: And Leah's strategy for this was to ignore it, which made that person probably feel pretty uncomfortable.

Leah: Oh, I know it's made them uncomfortable because they've actively ignored me in real life since then.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: But I'm not gonna feel bad about it. This—this is the new Leah.

Nick: Yeah, the new Leah is remarkable.

Leah: If you make me feel uncomfortable, the fact that I have to, like, think about my answer to be like, "How can I word this in a way that's like, makes you feel okay because I feel bad," no, I'm out.

Nick: But the old Leah might have actually tried to be more accommodating and, like, you know, smoothed it over and, like, "Oh, yeah, that's a really inappropriate thing you asked but, like, I'm gonna try and make everybody feel comfortable right now by making a joke or, you know, saying something light." And that would be a strategy many people use, but it's not required. It's not always required to make somebody feel comfortable who has clearly just done something a little outrageous.

Leah: Yeah. And I'm happy to now feel uncomfortable whenever I see this person. I'm not gonna feel uncomfortable, but I'm gonna be like, "Well, now we're uncomfortable because of what you started."

Nick: Yeah. So I think the idea of just the default setting for all interactions has to be making sure everybody is comfortable. I guess I just want to highlight, like, that's not really always true. And I think if you think it's true, it actually will make you act in a way that is against your own interests and also against the spirit of what etiquette is really about, which is being considerate, but also not being a pushover and not, like, putting yourself in, like, weird positions just to, like, be overly accommodating for no good reason.

Leah: And I don't love the term "pushover" because I feel like it falls in that people-pleaser category where it's like, I understand that what you're trying to do is take the high road.

Nick: Yeah, you might.

Leah: But taking the high road can also be not participating in somebody else's audacity.

Nick: Yeah. Walking away. Yeah. But I think it's in that walking away part or in the oh, let me just sort of call out that oh, that's a rude thing that just happened or you said or you did, that can just make the perpetrator feel, like, uncomfortable that they just got called out.

Leah: Yeah, let them feel uncomfortable.

Nick: Let them feel uncomfortable. Yeah. That's not your problem.

Leah: That's the new let them eat cake. Let them feel uncomfortable.

Nick: And in general, I do feel like the idea that we all should be comfortable all the time always, I don't know. I think life is sometimes just uncomfortable.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] It's very Buddhist. Life is suffering. That is one of the four Noble Truths.

Leah: [laughs] It's very stand up comedy. You're like, we're not all uncomfortable now. I'm not uncomfortable because I've been uncomfortable for so long that this is comfortable.

Nick: I mean, my default setting. Right.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So at the end of the day, I think it's just sort of interesting to note in general, we do want to make people feel comfortable. We don't want to go out of our way to make people feel uncomfortable, but there are times when people deserve it. And so as long as you're still being polite. Like, we are not allowed to be rude in the world, like, there's never a license to be rude, but we do not have to go out of our way to make people feel comfortable who do not deserve comfort in that moment.

Leah: And I think in many ways it's a very freeing feeling to be like, "Oh, I don't have to continue doing this."

Nick: Let it be awkward.

Leah: Let it be awkward. What—what a fun mantra. Let's let it be awkward!

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: "Oh, that was awkward!"

Nick: "Yep, that was awkward."

Leah: "But I didn't do it. That's not on me."

Nick: That's why it's good, because it's like, oh, I didn't make this awkward. You did.

Leah: And now I'm just gonna let us sit in it because I'm not fixing it anymore.

Nick: Just gonna let it hang.

Leah: I love this new era that we're in.

Nick: Yeah, it's—it's getting a little aggressive, but in a fun way.

Leah: [laughs] Oh, what's happening? What's happening with us?

Nick: I think this is a—we're now fun. We're fun. Now we're fun.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I retired at 32 from a job I hated to become a stay-at-home parent. My children are now teenagers. My family is very frugal and lives an obviously different lifestyle than friends and neighbors, but still I'm bombarded with comments that are hurtful like, 'That must be nice,' or 'I could never just sit at home all day,' or 'Oh, my husband would never allow me to just sit around while he earns all the money.' Most of my acquaintances are from charities I'm heavily involved with, or from my neighborhood, where I'm the one who looks in on elderly neighbors or keeps an eye out while a neighbor is on vacation or checks in on their pets every few days. I don't mind doing these things, but clearly I'm not just sitting at home. Even if I was, I just don't understand why anyone would point that out in such a rude way. Even in the charities I work with, I get comments to my face like, 'Oh, you can handle that because you don't work.' In the charity I'm most heavily involved with, I'm the only one under 65. Everyone else is retired with no children living at home. Am I being too sensitive?"

Leah: I didn't realize this until right at this moment, but what a perfect question to follow up our deep dive.

Nick: Ah, sure! So is she being too sensitive?

Leah: No.

Nick: Nah. No. I mean, this is rude. This is totally rude.

Leah: And the question "I just don't understand why anyone would point this out in such a rude way," they're rude.

Nick: Yeah, they're rude people.

Leah: They're rude people. And I feel like we could even say when these—because I see these comments happen. I've had versions of these comments for other things at me, and I think we can just—I mean, this is not it, but you almost just want to—A) you don't want to participate in this conversation. You don't want to allow this conversation so then you feel—so I almost want to say to the people who say something like that, "Wow, the audacity!"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, you don't want to explain what you then do do with your time, because now we're explaining and, like, I don't want to go down that road.

Leah: And I don't work a traditional type of job, but I find this question specifically to be inherently misogynistic, because it's been for so long that what quote-unquote, "what women do," which is unpaid labor, taking care of a house, taking care of children, raising children, taking care of our neighbors, taking care of our community, that that's somehow not real labor. It's—it's insulting. And I do think that at the very kernel of this, it's also misogynistic.

Nick: Yeah. No, this is definitely that flavor.

Leah: Because it's a hard job. It's an extremely hard job. And for someone to insinuate, not even insinuate, to act like it's ...

Nick: No, there's no insinuation here. We're just saying to your face. Yeah.

Leah: It's just straight up incredibly rude.

Nick: Yeah. And to the question how anybody spends their time, I mean, you really gotta land that, and you really gotta have the right relationship with somebody, because otherwise there's no way to ask in a way that's like, not super judgmental.

Leah: "Oh, you have time. You have time."

Nick: [laughs] Right. Because the things you spend your days on, oh, that's trivial.

Leah: Less important than mine.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, the retirees in this charity who have, you know, no children at home and, like, that's pretty bold to be like, "Oh, you don't work."

Leah: Pretty bold.

Nick: So I guess the real question is: what do we do when we are confronted with this type of statement or question? Like, what do we do about this?

Leah: I mean, if it was me?

Nick: Uh, well, I don't know. It depends on who you are today.

Leah: I think both Leahs would have responded the same way, just because this is one of those things that really sets me off at my core.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I would have trouble not saying, "Oh, how interesting that you find running a whole home to not be work."

Nick: Okay. Is that rude? Uh, I think if you say it in the right tone? Yeah, I think there's—I think there's a way in which we would have this sentiment. Yeah.

Leah: And then I might want to drop that for hundreds and hundreds of years, it's the work that women have been doing for free, and nobody thinks of it as labor.

Nick: When it becomes a TED Talk, you know, it might get a little far. I don't know.

Leah: It's not a TED Talk. That's just a point that I'm making.

Nick: Oh, I see a PowerPoint.

Leah: Oh, I don't do PowerPoints. I just get louder.

Nick: [laughs] That's true. Yeah, if you don't do a spreadsheet, you're certainly not gonna do a PowerPoint.

Leah: I just move my hands a lot and I get more impassioned.

Nick: Yeah, I like the idea of, like, "Oh, how interesting that you feel this way." Yeah, I think that's not a—that's not a bad direction to go in.

Leah: "How interesting that you see running a home, taking care of two children, checking on my neighbors, checking on my neighbor's pets is not work. Very interesting." And then just walk off.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think we definitely want to shut it down. I mean, we don't want to explain. I mean, I think even with that, it's that you are explaining what you are doing, which is like, I don't think we even owe them that.

Leah: But I think then they can sit and think with that, because why do they think that? And they shouldn't think that, and they should be embarrassed that they think that, and then they should be even more embarrassed that they said it out loud.

Nick: Yeah, we should make them feel a little uncomfortable about it.

Leah: A little—maybe a little awkward.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, let them—let them sit with that. Yeah. Yeah, there's no—yeah, there's no real, like, great sentence. The only thing I wrote down is like, "Oh, unfortunately, I have other obligations." And I think the idea of 'obligation' is sort of an interesting word because it makes it feel sort of like something that is important and required and, like, the things you do are required.

Leah: And they are important.

Nick: And they are important. So I kind of like the word 'obligation.' So if, like, your charity friends are like, "Oh, you should do it, you don't work," you can be like, "Oh actually, unfortunately I have other obligations at that time, so I cannot take this on." And that's a way to sort of like shut it down but not explain what your obligations are.

Leah: I think either work. It sort of depends on what kind of mood you're in. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. No, that's true. Yeah, that's true. So our next question is quote ...

Leah: Really quickly, I think the trick with the "how interesting" is to not say it in a way ...

Nick: The way you said it? [laughs]

Leah: ... where you say it the way you really feel it. You just say, "Oh! How interesting!"

Nick: Yes. That's why I was hesitating when you first said it, because it was sort of like, uh, it's a little aggressive out of the gate with the tone. But if you have a lighter, like, "Oh! How interesting that you feel like the things I do aren't as important," or whatever it is that you said. But I think, yeah, a little—a little lighter.

Leah: So I think that's how to land that. I just was coming from a place of being protective of our letter-writer. But I think when you say it, you say it as like, oh, it just hit you that—how curious!

Nick: Oh, yes. Curiosity. That—that is the spirit in which we would want to ask, like, "Oh, you've piqued my curiosity. This question? How interesting! How novel! Hmm, tell me more about your misogynistic tendencies."

Leah: "Tell me how you came to this conclusion that running a household ..."

Nick: "How did we arrive?"

Leah: "I'd love to hear more about it, but I have to go now because I'm literally running a household."

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. "Do tell!" And you also have to be British when you do it in a vague way.

Leah: Also, if you could be, like, swirling a little lime.

Nick: We need a little brandy snifter, yes.

Leah: "It's the thought process. I'd love to hear this one."

Nick: "Except I don't actually want to hear you try to weasel your way out of this, because there is no way. You were rude. Good day!" This is a great place for a "good day."

Leah: [laughs] It is a good—it's a good place for a good day.

Nick: "I said good day."

Leah: [laughs] I love the new us!

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. We were—I want to say we should dial it back, but I don't think we can dial this back anymore.

Leah: I think we're gonna keep dialing it up, honestly.

Nick: [laughs] So our next question is quote, "We have very dear friends who persist in picking their teeth at the table when we're in a restaurant. How can they not know that this is an activity to be confined to the bathroom? Obviously, I can't say anything, but really, rummaging around in your mouth is not something I want to be looking at."

Leah: I love the idea that it's—we have very dear friends, so it's obviously the whole—the couple or the group, the whole family.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: They're all picking. Which is, I think, romantic that they found each other.

Nick: Oh, do you think they pick each other's teeth like birds?

Leah: If they picked each other's teeth?

Nick: Wait, do birds do that? Wait, what animals pick each other's teeth?

Leah: No, they have beaks.

Nick: Does any mammal—yeah, right. How do—how do animals work?

Leah: [laughs] How do animals work? Well, they come in on the ground floor. Call back!

Nick: Animals groom each other.

Leah: Maybe a monkey? Maybe a monkey?

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I do think if they were picking each other's teeth, that would next level it to a place where you almost have to do a slow clap.

Nick: Oh, that's not the next level, that's the final level. Like, that's—that's the penthouse.

Leah: [laughs] That's the end game right there.

Nick: Yeah, that's the roof. That's—there are no more levels beyond picking each other's teeth at a table. That—I mean actually, slow clap, slow clap for that.

Leah: It is a slow clap. The romance.

Nick: So these are close friends. They pick their teeth at the table. And do we think it's with, like, toothpicks? It's with their fingers? Like, what do you think this is?

Leah: I can't tell. I really can't tell. Maybe a fork?

Nick: And they specified that it's when it's at a restaurant, which is somehow this is fine, like, other places. Like, in their home, it's fine. But, like, in a restaurant, it's not.

Leah: I think they're saying that people outside of themselves are seeing it.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, sure. "How can they not know that this is an activity to be confined to the bathroom?" How can they not know? Well, how can people not know you shouldn't trim your fingernails on a subway? Like, I guess they haven't heard our podcast. Like, is that how you not know? I don't know.

Leah: I wouldn't put those things in the same category.

Nick: You would not put fingernail clipping on a subway in the same category as picking teeth in a restaurant?

Leah: No.

Nick: I mean, they're in the same world, the grooming in public kind of thing.

Leah: Yeah, but the clipping your nails, there's nails flying everywhere. And then it's also the clicking. It's the clicking that puts a person over the edge because you know it's happening, but you don't know where it's flying at you from.

Nick: Okay. And we assume that the teeth picking is not aggressive enough where we're gonna lose track of that spinach.

Leah: I assume they're not gonna flick it at me. Also, the reason they're picking their teeth is because they just ate. I under—it's a cause and effect. Whereas on the train, why are you—why?

Nick: Right. True. Okay.

Leah: Your nails didn't just grow right now and they're out of control.

Nick: Right. Yeah, that's true. Okay.

Leah: They had something stuck in their teeth from eating.

Nick: Yeah. Okay. So the proximity to the cause and effect. Okay. Yeah, I can see that. That is material.

Leah: It's just a different—I'm not saying that I don't understand why it bothers our letter-writer. I'm just saying it's—I would not in any way put it in the same category as a person pulling out nail clippers on the subway.

Nick: Right. Now Miss Manners was actually asked something along these lines, and she gave curious advice, which was some woman, I guess, like, had some board meeting and then it's often there's food and then, like, didn't want to leave the table because she might miss part of the meeting. And so Miss Manners' advice was if you have floss in your bag or you want to, like, deal with it, you reach down and pretend like you're getting something out of your purse on the floor. And as you're down there, if you can pick your tooth fast enough where it doesn't look like anything else is happening down there, then you're allowed to do it. So that was, like, the advice there.

Leah: I like how she works it in. I also think, say you have a fake tooth or bridge.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: Which is prone to gathering—like, I have a fake tooth. If you ate food, it would get stuck in my tooth. That's how much gets stuck in my tooth.

Nick: Wow! [laughs]

Leah: Unbelievable.

Nick: Wow! Oh, that's some, Lady and the Tramp pasta.

Leah: Really unbelievable. So say you're at this situation that you've created where you're at a board meeting and you don't want to miss anything.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But you know this about your tooth, and you've gotta eat.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: You have toothpicks in your bag.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I'm trotting this idea out because I've seen this happen in a table, and it didn't—and then you get that toothpick out, but you have your hand over your mouth.

Nick: The hand shield?

Leah: And you're doing a hand shield with a toothpick.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I don't see ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I'm fine with that.

Nick: And interestingly, toothpicks actually have sort of ebbed and flowed in, like, etiquette history in terms of, like, what's allowed and what's not allowed. Right now, toothpicks and, like, picking your teeth at the table? Not allowed. But, like, in museums you will see, like, gold toothpicks, like, on chains that people would wear and bring with them. Or you would see, like, silver, like, boxes meant to hold toothpicks, which would actually be, like, at a formal dinner. So, like, the idea of, like, oh, toothpicks are allowed, like, there have been times in history. Maybe these are just historians.

Leah: We could get them a gold toothpick or a chain for their neck.

Nick: There we go.

Leah: Hey, if you're gonna do it, do it with style.

Nick: Do it with style. Sure. Although I'm more of sort of a silver tone person, you know? So I don't think I want gold.

Leah: For anybody listening getting Nick a gift, he would like a silver-toned toothpick on a necklace.

Nick: [laughs] Oh, gosh. Please do not send me this.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So your suggestion about the hand shield, I think that's—that's a good compromise. If we just cannot live with this speck of whatever, and we put our hand over our mouth. Like the same position, the kind of cupped hand if we're gonna remove an olive pit from our mouth. Just something that is like, "Oh, I don't want you to see my mouth cavity as something is happening." That's the idea of, like, the little mouth screen. And so if we do that, I guess, you know, we gotta be slick about it. We cannot get, like, all the fingers in the mouth and, like, really get, you know, to the tonsils. But I feel like it's a quick pick. You know, I think that's good. Anything more? Yeah, we gotta excuse ourselves.

Leah: Sometimes there's that fear that there's just something on your teeth.

Nick: Well, then that's when you hopefully have a trusted friend, colleague, which is like, "Oh, is there anything on my tooth?"

Leah: Yeah, you just do a little next to them, "Anything on the teeth? Thanks."

Nick: Yeah. And I think that's polite. I think that's polite.

Leah: I'm fine with it if I—I mean sometimes you gotta ask because you're like, I got a tooth up front that just always gets stuff. Is it there? I don't know.

Nick: A lot of opportunities for things to get stuck in those teeth.

Leah: Oh! I mean, that's what I'm here for, to be honest about what gets stuck in my teeth. That's my role in this podcast.

Nick: I do actually travel with floss. Like, if I have a bag with me, I have, like, a little pouch in my bag that has, like, emergency stuff. So one of the things I always carry is, like, oh, I have a thing of floss in there. Absolutely. I don't want to live in a world in which, like, there's something in my tooth.

Leah: You're not talking about, like, overnights. You're talking about—you're talking about like a day bag.

Nick: Oh, no, I have my laptop charger, I have floss, I have chapstick, I have a bag of mint tea, I have a power bar, I have hand sanitizer. It's just urban—urban survival.

Leah: I also have a bag that has specific things in it.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: That sometimes has floss depending on how together I have it that day.

Nick: Yeah. No, I always—I always make sure. Well, it will come as no surprise to anybody that I actually have a checklist that I use to make sure that my little mini pouch is always stocked with the things that I always want to make sure I have, so that I always know that I have those things. I want to make sure that I always have the floss, the chapstick, the pen, the notepad.

Leah: You do have to, in moments such as these, think about the miracle it is that we came together, you with a physical checklist as to what goes in your mini bag.

Nick: [laughs] It's not physical. It's digital. Digital. Don't—let's not get crazy. It's just a pinned note in my notes application.

Leah: And then ...

Nick: Where I have checklists for different things. Yes, so you're saying you do not have a checklist, is that what you're trying to say?

Leah: I mean, I have what I want in my bag. It's not written down anywhere. I also have three rotating bags, so I don't know which bag it's in. Sometimes I get out of the house, I have the wrong bag.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: With nothing in it. Chaos. Including a license.

Nick: Mine is orange, and so it's bright. And so it always moves from bag to bag.

Leah: I mean, yin and yang.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah. Do you get to be the white half or the black half?

Leah: I don't care.

Nick: Okay. Well, that's very—that's very accommodating.

Leah: [laughs] I just like being a part of something.

Nick: [laughs] Just happy to be—happy to be part of the circle. Yeah.

Leah: Happy to be part of the circle.

Nick: So do you have questions for us about anything? Please let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm gonna repent.

Nick: Okay. Getting those in. Getting that scorecard up.

Leah: I actually have two repents. So I have a repent for this week and one in the hopper for two weeks from now.

Nick: Okay. On deck. So what has happened?

Leah: So this was—I'm still thinking about it. So I thought ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... I have to bring it up because I'm still thinking about it. After our live show, we—you know, we met so many lovely people. Nick and I felt so loved and supported, and it was wonderful. And we were talking to a lot of people. And also for me personally, after I get off stage, I'm sort of in, like, a coming down period.

Nick: Right. Yeah. And it was an intense 90 solid minutes on stage, and you're like, "Oh, I'm just thirsty. I just need a glass of water." [laughs] Right.

Leah: And so my brain is sort of like going over everything, so that's not my most functioning time right after I'm on stage.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: So a lovely human being gave me cupcakes.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: Yes, I showed you the cupcakes.

Nick: Beautiful cupcakes.

Leah: I was so excited about the cupcakes. And I don't feel like—I said thank you, but I didn't get their name. And I'm sure they told me their name, but that was in my processing time period, and I just feel like a horrible human that I have been unable to find them online and thank them for the cupcakes.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And so I've just been thinking about it. I think about it multiple times a week.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: And so I was like, "I'm just gonna bring it up on the podcast."

Nick: Okay. I mean, so is this a repent? It is not a repent.

Leah: It is a repent. Because I feel like I didn't—I wasn't as with it as I normally am where I would be like, "Oh, thank you, Jenny," you know, and be like, it was Jenny with the cupcakes. I just—I couldn't ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I feel like my fault because I was—my brain was in one place, my follow up was down, and then I just—I just wanted to follow them home and give them a huge hug. I can't believe you brought me cupcakes! I just felt like I didn't ...

Nick: The gratitude you expressed felt inadequate. Is that what you're saying?

Leah: It felt inadequate.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: It felt inadequate. And then my—because my memory is—I have hazy memory during that period of time, which is just what happened. So I just wanted to explain it to people it's often what happens right after, like, a high adrenaline place.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And so I feel bad about that, and I just wanted to say thank you for the cupcakes, and I'm sorry I haven't found you on a—on a social media or on the internet or at your—in front of your house maybe.

Nick: [laughs] Then you'd really have something to repent for. Well, if you're listening and I'm—if you came to our live show, I assume you were a listener. So yeah, let us know and then we can—like, Leah can go to sleep finally.

Leah: But the funny thing is it's probably gonna be like somebody I know very well, and I just was like in a haze and they'll be like, "Leah, are you kidding me? We grew up together." And then I'll be even more embarrassed.

Nick: Although actually, what you should repent for is, like, were are all those cupcakes only for you? Were you not supposed to share those with me?

Leah: No, they said I could share them with you.

Nick: Oh, I see. Okay. [laughs]

Leah: I think it's fair that our listeners know that I'm the person eating all the food.

Nick: That's true. Yeah, if you send food to our show, Leah will eat it. I will not.

Leah: Nick literally puts it in a package and sends it straight to me.

Nick: Forward it right to Los Angeles. Yes.

Leah: And who eats it? I do. And Nick goes, "Are you eating food from strangers?" And I say, "Yeah, I am."

Nick: Yeah. All right. So we're currently looking to do more funeral etiquette.

Leah: [laughs] I feel like what's that—that poem? Mithridates, he died old. That story about that king who, like, ate a little poison from, like, different kinds of poison to build up an immunity. I have been eating food from ...

Nick: P.O. Box food.

Leah: ...everywhere my whole life. Not even just P.O. box food. You know, I'll—I eat at roadside stops, I eat it—you know that at this point, my body is like, "Come on!"

Nick: Yeah. Okay. So you're—you're immune at this point to anything.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Speaking of which, for me, I would like to vent. So one of the actually great things about this segment, and just our show in general, is I am actually significantly more relaxed in the world about just things in the world having done this show. Like, believe it or not, I was a little more high strung before in my past, and this show has actually made me mellow out because I'm less bothered by stuff because I have a place to put it. And having a place to put it? I mean, how freeing!

Nick: And so I do have a running list on my phone next to the checklist I have for the other things, and I just keep note of just rude things that happen to me, and maybe we'll talk about on the show, maybe we won't, but I just clock it all. And it's actually fun because as something is coming, you actually can sometimes tell if a rude situation is about to come. Like, you sense it. You know, I'm like an animal right before an earthquake, like, "Oh, there is a disturbance," and, like, I can sense a rude thing coming. And so it is just wonderful to actually just, like, have a place to put rude things.

Nick: And so I have a running list. And so this happened a while back, but we've never talked about it, and it is relevant. And so for today, my vent is: I was getting my annual flu shot. And so I go to a chain pharmacy near my house. Very convenient. So I walk into, like, the little cordoned-off area and I'm like, "Hey there, how's it going? How's your day going?" And he says, "Horrible."

Leah: Hmm.

Nick: Oh, that is not what you want to hear when someone's about to jab something into your arm. Like, that's not—I don't—I don't want to hear your day was horrible. Also, you went off script.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: That's not the script. That's not—that's not the next line in this little play that we all know. It's, "Great," "Fine," I think. Are there any other choices? No.

Leah: I think you could even go, "Okay."

Nick: Yeah. I mean, "okay" would be fine. Like, I would take even sort of a negative tone, but at least he followed the script like, "It's okay." I would be better than, like, horrible. That is—because your day is so horrible that you actually have to tell me. It's so horrible that you actually went off script. Like, that's a bad day. And so I said, "Oh, sorry to hear. Hopefully your day's over soon." because it was like a late evening appointment. He said nothing, nothing in response. He just jammed the needle in my arm and he said, "Have a good one." And I said, "Thank you, have a nice day." And I just said that because "have a nice day" is sort of like the—that's the script.

Leah: Well, you're sticking to the script.

Nick: He already said, though, he was having a horrible day. And so I left being like, oh, that was awkward because I just said, like, "Oh, have a nice day," even though you're not having a good day. And I was like, oh, that—this exchange was not good. This was not—this is not how this is supposed to go.

Leah: Well, I mean, you were—you were just being like, "Hey, I hope it picks up." Also, like, you're the customer.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm allowed to say, "How's your day going?" And I guess I'm allowed to say, "Oh, it's horrible."

Leah: Well, you're getting a needle stuck in your arm and he's doing it.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, somebody's having a horrible day is gonna shove something in your arm. I don't love that.

Leah: I don't love it.

Nick: No. It's terrible. Yeah. So then I was like, well, like, I think he's doing a good job. [laughs] So because it was fine, I'm still here. It's fine. But yeah, so I obviously—before I even left the store I went into, like, the mouthwash aisle and I was sort of like—which is all like locked up in my local ...

Leah: Now it's all locked up. Yeah.

Nick: You can't get to anything. And so I, like, whipped out my phone and I was like, do do do do do, like, we're gonna just register this encounter, and here we are.

Leah: Sometimes you want to be like, "What happened to lying?" Um. [laughs]

Nick: The fiction. Yes. Etiquette is about fiction. So many times it's just about the fiction of pretending that something is not happening. So we're gonna just pretend I'm not having a horrible day and just follow the script. "Hey, how's it going?" "Fine." Jam it into my arm. "Have a nice day." "Thanks. Have a good one." Like, that's all it needed to be.

Leah: I mean, next time you could be like, "Yeah, uh, we're all in a sinking ship, but I like to pretend that everything's fine. So if you could just go along with me, that would be great. Thanks!"

Nick: Yeah. "How's your day going? Oh, well, other than the existential crisis?"

Leah: "Of the world?"

Nick: "Of the world?" Yes. And they'd be like, "Well, we had a good run. Have a nice day."

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned that you have an orange bag.

Nick: Oh, yes.

Leah: That gets put into your other day bags that has a checklist.

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: Digitally.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: That contains floss, a power bar, hand sanitizer.

Nick: Wow! Oh, you're really nailing the list.

Leah: I feel like there's probably an extra writing utensil in there. Maybe ...

Nick: Yeah, there's a pen, notepad, mint tea. Yeah.

Leah: Oh, that's right, it was the mint tea that also really ...

Nick: Well, here's the thing: I often travel with this, and so on an airplane I really like to have my own mint tea.

Leah: I just want to point out right now that my mother travels with her own tea. So ...

Nick: I actually—sidebar, I was on an airplane once and I asked for hot water with lemon, and the flight attendant said, "Only ladies get that." And I said ...

Leah: What?

Nick: "I'm a lady, and I would like hot water with lemon."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So—and I learned that you want to have cattle and goats in your house.

Leah: Yes. And sidebar, can I tell you where that came from?

Nick: [laughs] Where?

Leah: Since we're doing sidebar. Also, back to your sidebar. Before your sidebar, I would like to—I was saying that because I think that it's interesting that all the close people in my life carry their own tea.

Nick: Oh, interesting! Okay, maybe if you want to get close with Leah Bonnema, you have to be a tea carrier.

Leah: You have to be carrying tea. No, I don't drink tea. But everybody I—I associate with on a regular basis carries tea. Very interesting. When I was a wee lass ...

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: And I love that we're doing a sidebar on this because you know I love a sidebar. I—there's a dairy farm near us.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And so it was like a winter into spring where the calves were already born, but it was getting hot and cold and hot and cold. And they asked people that were friends with them to come, and we sat with the calves in the hay bales to try to warm them up with our body heat.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Because they couldn't keep the calves in the barn with their main dairy producing cows because they didn't want to risk getting those cows sick. But the, you know, baby cows are so thin, so I went and slept in a hay bale with a baby cow, and they let me name the baby cow. And I said to the farmer, "Why don't you just bring them inside?" Because they're worried about them getting sick and dying.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And he said, "That's not how farm life works. Like, they either make it or they don't make it."

Nick: Ooh!

Leah: And it was literally in that moment where I was like, oh, I could never be a farmer. I said to him, "I would bring my animals in the house."

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: I said it, and then I feel like full circle moment where you're saying how that was a thing at some point. And I thought, my calves are coming in the house.

Nick: Okay. Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: [laughs] Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note to my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want your questions, and we want you to try and stump us. Give us your most complex, your most nuanced, your most complicated etiquette questions, because we want to give it a shot, see if we can do it.

Leah: We want to read it and go, "Oh, I gotta lay down on the floor. I don't know how to handle this."

Nick: Yeah. No, I definitely want more contemplation. Yeah, none of these easy, like, "Oh, do I have to send thank-you notes for my wedding?" Yes. No, I want something that's like, "Oh, what is the answer?" So send those in. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: I want to sweat.

Nick: I mean, that doesn't take much.

Leah: [laughs] I know I was gonna say I've actually sweat in a lot of these questions. I know you're like, "I know how to handle this," but I—I'm having an anxiety attack.

Nick: But I want to sweat.

Leah: Yeah, let's make Nick sweat, because I've been sweating. I have been sweating. [laughs]

Nick: And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah, it's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: Well, I just thought of this right now. I had another Cordials of Kindness, but off the Repent, I would love to thank the lovely woman who brought me cupcakes ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... to our show.

Nick: There you go!

Leah: Because we didn't get enough chat time, and my mind blanked and I haven't been able to follow up with you. So thank you so much!

Nick: Very nice. And for me, I want to read a nice email we just got, which is quote, "Just wanted to say that I introduced my husband to your podcast on a long car ride from Philly to Pittsburgh. We often have trouble agreeing on what to listen to, but we're completely united in hilarity listening to your show. My husband, who was driving, was laughing so incredibly hard at one point that he said through his laughter fit, "This is not safe. Pause it.' He then proceeded to quote the episode for many hours after. So thank you for bringing joy and laughter to an otherwise tedious and mundane trip. Just wanted to send this note of gratitude on the great stuff you put out each week."

Leah: Oh!

Nick: So nice! So thank you for making our day. Really appreciate it.

Leah: That really paints a beautiful story. I mean, I could see the whole thing. It's so fun!

Nick: So thank you.

Leah: Thank you!