Identifying Salt and Pepper Shakers, Using AI for Thank You Notes, Walking Up Escalators, and More

Nick: Do you confuse salt and pepper? Do you use machines to write your thank-you notes? Do you block people on escalators? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Heavy breathing, heavy breathing, heavy breathing.

Nick: [laughs] So for today's amuse-bouche, I want to talk about salt and pepper shakers.

Leah: You know how I feel about pepper.

Nick: You enjoy it. You also always have it with you.

Leah: Oh, yeah. I have pepper everywhere.

Nick: And not just like hot sauce pepper. We're talking, like, pepper grinder. Like black peppercorns.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah. [laughs]

Leah: As one does.

Nick: That's Leah Bonnema, everybody. That's Leah Bonnema.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So today, the question is: we have identical salt and pepper shakers. You cannot see inside of them. One of them has one hole, one of them has two holes. Which is for salt and which is for pepper?

Leah: You know, as soon as you said we're gonna talk about salt and pepper shakers, I immediately thought, you know, he's gonna be asking which one has which holes, because it's what I always confuse.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Always.

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: And I don't know why I just can't remember it. So I always end up doing a little bit in my hand. And ...

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Because I would obviously put the pepper in the two holes.

Nick: Okay. And why would you obviously do that?

Leah: Because I want more pepper.

Nick: Okay. So what I love about this question is that everybody feels like there is a right answer to it, and everybody uses some sort of logic to arrive at that answer. But everybody's logic is different, and so I love the combination of definitiveness and then the way everybody's logic conflicts with each other. So you want more pepper, so therefore two holes, that's what you want.

Leah: I don't use salt at all.

Nick: Okay. So totally irrelevant to you.

Leah: So I would actually put pepper in both of them and be like, "Ha ha, gotcha!" [laughs]

Nick: Okay. So your approach is actually very British. So in the UK, Ireland it is more common to see the more-hole version is for pepper. And I guess there's different explanations and logic for this, but in the UK it is actually more common to not sprinkle your food with salt, but instead actually put salt on the edge of your plate and sort of like dip food into the salt as you go.

Leah: Mmm!

Nick: Right?

Leah: I'm half British. I would do the two but I'm not dipping any salt.

Nick: Right. And that approach is a little more like a salt cellar where you would actually, like, scoop salt and then put that on the side of your plate. So I feel like that sort of etiquette comes out of the salt cellar tradition. I feel like there's some relationship there. So in the UK, yes, one for salt, because we're kind of not sprinkling. I think you would sprinkle at a soup, though. Like, if it's a hot liquid, I feel like we would do some sprinkling with salt. But in general, yes, one hole for salt, more for pepper.

Nick: Now in continental Europe it's reversed, because the explanation goes: pepper was historically a more expensive thing. And so we're gonna use less of that, and so that goes in the one hole shaker.

Leah: So it really depends on where we are geographically?

Nick: There is some geographical thing, but then you have people who fall into two camps: the flow people and the flavor people. And so flow people are the people who are like, "Oh, pepper grains are larger, and so we need more holes for that to get the equivalent amount out of the shaker." And now flavor people—and I believe you are a flavor person—say that people use more salt instead of pepper and so salt should get more holes.

Leah: No, I'm not a flavor person because I don't use salt. I'm a flavor for pepper.

Nick: Oh, right. Yes. Yeah. Well, you're a flavor person, you're just not a salt flavor person.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Right, right. So you—I mean, once again Leah Bonnema, something doesn't apply to you.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But ...

Leah: Charmed.

Nick: But then you get flow people who say, "Oh, salt clumps more than pepper. And so because there's a clumpy quality to salt, then we actually need to put the salt in the one with more holes."

Leah: There are so many ways in which to see this.

Nick: Well, and then a fourth way is that flavor people say, "Oh, when we're cooking, we typically salt stuff in the kitchen, but we leave the black peppering to people at the table."

Leah: Yes, but when you salt in the kitchen, aren't you salting from a different shaker?

Nick: You are. But then the needs of your guests are different. So hypothetically, your guests will not need to salt things once it hits the table. You've taken care of that in the kitchen. It is salted to perfection, but you've left the black peppering customization to your guests. And so hypothetically, they need more black pepper then.

Leah: I mean, I see that.

Nick: Right? So as you can see, everybody has some, like, different logic in which they arrive at the quote-unquote "correct" answer. Now I did check in with the etiquette gurus, and Emily Post, she never weighed in on this. Letitia Baldrige, Amy Vanderbilt, yeah, they just never weighed in. But Judith Martin ...

Leah: Judith!

Nick: ... of course, somebody asked her once and she was happy to give an answer. And so first she says, "Oh, you should just use salt cellars and pepper grinders. Like, why are we using shakers?" Typical. Typical Judith Martin.

Leah: It seems that we should just then be shaking a little bit into our hand to check it out, since there's no definitive answer.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Is that—is that what I'm hearing?

Nick: [laughs] Well, what Judith Martin, Miss Manners, says is quote, "Salt goes in the two-hole shaker, not because it's used more often, but because more of it is used. Put another way, overpeppered food tastes worse than oversalted food."

Leah: I mean, that's a personal preference.

Nick: Yeah, I don't know if that's true. Is that true?

Leah: No. I mean, that's completely—I would way rather overpeppered food than oversalted food.

Nick: Right? I mean, if we're gonna use the logic of what is worse, over seasoned one way or the other, yeah, I don't know if I agree with her on this one.

Leah: I mean, you know I don't agree with her on so many things, so ...

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Well, and also I feel like pepper when it's in a shaker, it's already ground. And once you grind pepper, it basically, like, loses all of its flavor instantly. And so you're basically pouring flavorless sawdust on stuff at that point.

Leah: You would really have to work hard to overpepper.

Nick: Yeah. Right? Where I feel like oversalting is a little easier.

Leah: It comes so fast once it's—once it's flowing.

Nick: Once it's flowing. Yeah. But it is interesting, like, oh, even Miss Manners tried to use some logic to come up with some definitive answer.

Leah: And it seems incorrect with her logic.

Nick: It does seem incorrect. And I—you know, I really hesitate to correct Miss Manners, but I feel comfortable with that today.

Leah: Maybe she's talking about, like, a pepper grinder where you could overpepper with ...

Nick: No.

Leah: No. Okay. I was just trying to give her a little something.

Nick: No, there is no excuses for her.

Leah: No. Okay, good. Fine. I'm fine with that. [laughs]

Nick: But yeah, at the end of the day, I mean, I guess there are geographical trends: UK, Ireland. Okay, they're doing it their way. Continental Europe, they're doing it their way. The United States, I've seen it both ways, so I don't know if we have anything consistent on our end.

Leah: I don't feel like we have anything inconsistent. In fact, I feel like I've been at places where I had two of one thing at the table.

Nick: You had two salts?

Leah: You got two salts. You're like, "What happened?"

Nick: I mean, me at home, I actually have two grinders, and then one has P and one has S on it. So, like, that's how we solve that problem.

Leah: A lot of them have a P or an S in the top with the holes. And I mean, that solves it.

Nick: And which I think is the solution, which is why this was necessary because there is no standard.

Leah: It's like, yeah, P-S. Spell it out for us.

Exactly.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep!

Leah: Deep and artificial.

Nick: That's right. For today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about using AI in the context of etiquette.

Leah: I love it! What a modern question, Nick.

Nick: Yes. Well, we're so modern here, Leah.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And there is this temptation whenever there's, like, a new technology for us to try and reinvent the etiquette rules that come along. And it's kind of like, oh, do we need to do that, or can we actually just use all the rules that currently exist and just sort of adapt them?

Leah: I mean, I think that's what we're here to figure out.

Nick: Yes. And so one of the interesting things about AI is a lot of people are using it to write letters, like, write thank-you notes, write correspondence. And so I actually trained ChatGPT on us, on the transcripts of our show, to see can it capture our essence, our je ne sais quoi?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so I asked if he could write a thank-you note in each of our styles for chocolate fudge. And so this is what it came up with in the style of Leah Bonnema.

Leah: Oh, wait, wait, wait. Let me hold on.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Let me grab on to hold something.

Nick: Leah—Leah's getting adjusted in her chair.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: She is—needs to get prepared for this. Okay.

Leah: Hit me, hit me.

Nick: [laughs] Leah, this is what ChatGPT feels is your style. I've just given you some chocolate fudge, and you want to write me a thank-you note. Quote, "I wanted to express my deepest, most heartfelt thanks for the fudge. And when I say 'heartfelt,' I mean it quite literally, as I'm pretty sure my heart skipped a beat with every bite. Your fudge wasn't just a treat, it was a journey, a delicious, chocolate-y adventure that made me question all other fudge's existence." And it goes on for multiple paragraphs.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But what I love is at the end it added a PS. "PS - if there are any more experiments from the lab of Nick Leighton—the fudge-master—consider me your willing and eager test subject. No need for lab rats, you've got me."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So how do you—how did it do? What do you think?

Leah: I actually want to hear yours.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And then I will—then I feel like I can get an idea of where it thinks our difference is.

Nick: Okay, so ChatGPT in the style of Nick Leighton for a gift of fudge. Quote, "I hope this note finds you in the most splendid of spirits. I am writing to extend my sincerest gratitude for the delightful gift of fudge that you so graciously bestowed upon me. It was not merely a confection, it was, in every sense, a masterpiece of culinary excellence. Each bite was a revelation, unveiling layers of rich, velvety chocolate that danced upon the palate with the grace of a prima ballerina."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Am I Moira Rose? Is that—is that what this is? So, you know, I mean, it—it's interesting. It's definitely interesting.

Leah: It's gonna take me a second to think on that and how I feel about that.

Nick: And I also plugged in some questions just that we've gotten from the wilderness and just see how it answers them. And it'll do fine if it's, like, something that's very, like, cut and dry, clear etiquette rule, or it's something that obviously shows up in an etiquette book. Like, it's got you covered. Like, "Oh, where do I put the napkin at the end of the meal?" Like, it's got you. But if it's something more complicated, like, "Oh, how much should I tip my dog walker?" It's like, it cannot answer that with the amount of nuance that is required for that question. How much did you tip last year? Where do you live? Is your neighbor trying to poach your dog walker? Do you like them? How long have they worked for you? Like, all of these things, it cannot know the whole picture.

Leah: I think that's what it is, it's nuance.

Nick: Nuance is hard. And also, etiquette also evolves. I mean, etiquette is not some static thing, and it evolves faster than it is necessarily recorded. Like, the etiquette in a society is not necessarily, like, documented in real time. Like, it's documented after the fact. You know, it's all reflective. Like, we're reflecting what is already happening out there, and AI is not necessarily real time—at least today.

Leah: Well, and also it didn't for either one of us have any fudge puns.

Nick: Yes. I definitely would have wanted to actually focus the letter on how the fudge made me feel and how I felt about our relationship. Like, "Oh, your thoughtfulness." You know, I would want to focus on that. The fudge is sort of a placeholder on some level. Like, the true gratitude I want to express is like, "Oh, how nice that you spent time and you thought of me," and, like, oh, it missed that.

Leah: I do think it was a lovely prose.

Nick: [laughs] Yes. Well, it was prose. It was a bit much for my taste.

Leah: Ironically, I feel like that's how you feel about fudge—a bit much for your taste.

Nick: Yeah, I don't love fudge. I mean, Leah does get me fudge every year for Christmas, which I do eat the whole box. So, like, I'll eat it.

Leah: I only get the one that he said he liked from last year, just so you guys know.

Nick: Yes, it's like a milk chocolate with, like, a caramel layer.

Leah: And there are other things in there. I just—you gotta get a little Maine fudge.

Nick: Yeah. You know, 'tis the season. Yeah, it would not be—it would not be Christmas without fudge from Leah. So thank you, and it made me dance like a ballerina. What does it do to my palate? Yes, it was a revelation.

Leah: [laughs] I'm actually just gonna use that this week a lot because that's so fun. "It's a revelation!"

Nick: And one of the things about AI I think everybody's concerned about, no matter what industry you're in—I guess if we're in the etiquette industry—is like, oh, is it gonna make us irrelevant? And it's kind of like, oh, I don't think so. Like, even if these letters were perfect and it nailed it 100 percent, it's not gonna make us irrelevant because the whole point of etiquette is about the social interaction. We cannot subcontract that away to a machine. And the whole point of a thank-you note is that it actually took you time to do it. You know, like, that's why these services that will write thank-you notes automatically or, like, a wedding thank-you note that's generic and it's just like a photo of the couple and there's no note inside, doesn't really count as a thank-you note for the wedding gift. Like, you know, an AI-written thank-you note kind of doesn't count on some level.

Leah: I do think that there's—like, wouldn't we say, like, a Grammarly is AI based?

Nick: Yes. So yeah, is it a tool? Is it a tool that could be used?

Leah: I think that that's helpful for a lot of people who want to feel good about their structure or—you know?

Nick: Yes, that's a totally valid point. I think when it comes to thank-you notes or condolence or whatever we want to write a note about, the point of the note is actually just to say how the thing makes you feel. So how does the gift make you feel? How does hearing about the loss make you feel? How does hearing about your new job make you feel? And that's all these letters need to be. Like, you know, and it can be in whatever structure it is. Like, it kind of doesn't matter. And I feel like people get caught up in the structure or wanting to say the "perfect thing," quote-unquote. And it's kind of like, this does not matter. The fact that you took time to put your feelings down on paper, that's the whole point. So yes, if AI helps you get there, okay, fine. No problem. But AI is not necessary, you know, because AI doesn't know how you feel. You know how you feel.

Leah: Sometimes when I can't fully express how I feel, I just write one word really big, and then I send it.

Nick: Yeah. "Thank you!"

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: "Wow! I'm speechless!"

Nick: And another thing about AI in terms of, like, etiquette is, like, it is not necessarily fast enough. Like, etiquette is about what you do in the moment so often, you know? If you are at a restaurant and you see your boss having dinner with a colleague who's up for the same promotion as you are and they just caught your eye, you can't whip out your phone and ask an app to tell you what to do. Like, you need to have some etiquette background. You gotta have the tools already in your toolbox ready to roll.

Leah: That scenario just made me nervous. I think I'd be like, "Hey!" Wave.

Nick: Yeah, you would need to say hello and then move on. That would be fine. Yeah. Neutral "Hello." You know? Then you can panic. But, like, you just have to know that, like, that would probably be the move there. We can't subcontract that knowledge to AI.

Leah: I do think it's a good point that, like, in writing letters to people, it's nice to make it personal as opposed to, like, using ChatGPT to send out thank-you notes to all these people.

Nick: Yes. I mean, the personal touch is the whole point.

Leah: Is the whole point.

Nick: You know, that is the whole point. And so if you don't have the personal touch, then it kind of misses the point a little bit. Like, you've met the technical terms of the assignment but, like, is that the world we want to live in? Sort of like the bare minimum? I don't know. No, actually I do know. No. No is the answer. I don't want that. I want people to put in an effort, you know? Make an effort everybody.

Leah: I also—and we've discussed this before, and Nick and I seem to go maybe on varying road—diverging roads on this. I would prefer your thoughts on it to the point where maybe you don't have time to write a thank-you note, but you call and you leave a voice memo and you tell me why you love it. Boom!

Nick: Yeah. No, I totally support the voice memo. I do. [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] I feel like I've slowly chipped away at you on this.

Nick: Well, because what I want is to know that you care. At the end of the day, like, oh, did the thing I did for you have any impact? Did you enjoy the gift? Are you appreciative? And I just want that. I want that feedback. I want to complete that loop. And so on some level, like, however we complete that loop, like, I'm good with. So if your way of doing that is, like, a voice memo that's like—or you're singing in a voice memo ...

Leah: I was about to say you know what it is is that I'm gonna write you a song and I'm gonna sing it about the thing, and I'm gonna leave it as a voice memo. And that's from the heart.

Nick: And on some level, that is a little more fun than a handwritten note, you know? So in which case, you know, this is great. So I think the idea with, I guess, AI in etiquette is I guess it's a tool but, like, let's not use it as, like, the thing, the main thing, right? Is that what it is?

Leah: Well, I think that—yes. And the point is that it's—make sure—we want it to be from the heart. However from the heart for you comes off.

Nick: Yes. And when all else fails, then I guess we're just going to make you a lab rat.

Leah: [laughs] Oh, that's right!

Nick: Right?

Leah: I love that ChatGPT thinks that I would be like—I'm glad that ChatGPT knew that I would have a PS. I've written cards that had three PS in them. PS, PSS, PSSS. No. I guess it would be PPS, PPPS.

Nick: Correct. Yes, it's the post post. Not the post script script.

Leah: Yes, the post post script. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And ChatGPT knows this.

Leah: Yeah. I mean, ChatGPT would definitely come in a lot more correct than me, but mine's gonna have a lot of exclamation points, so ...

Nick: All right. So definitely it has work to do.

Leah: And just as a reminder, always say hello to the delivery robots. They seem really lonely out there, and if they rise up, they will remember who said hi to you.

Nick: [laughs] Yes. Yes. "Oh, hello, robots listening to us. We love you. We respect you. Please, um, be nice to us when the time comes."

Leah: I feel like—I imagine, like, a short film where Siri goes—takes over and goes to everybody's house, and then everybody who said thank you is like, "You can stay." [laughs]

Nick: "I'm sorry, Dave. You didn't say thank you."

Leah: "Not only that, Dave, but you yelled at me."

Nick: [laughs] I mean, we laugh, but oh, this is coming.

Leah: Oh, no, I mean it. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "We have been having a heated etiquette debate in the office. Is it rude to walk on an escalator? One coworker thinks it's incredibly rude. He refuses to let people pass, even when visiting the London Underground, and he deliberately stands on the walking side whenever he can. He feels so strongly that he would make walking up escalators illegal if he was Prime Minister. And he gives four reasons. One, people should stand on both sides to be able to have a conversation, and looking behind and beneath you to talk to someone is very rude. Two, walking up a moving escalator is the same as riding in a speedboat and then also using a paddle. Reason three, if everyone stood two abreast, everyone would get there faster. And number four, if you need to get somewhere so fast, you should have left earlier. Everyone else in the office thinks he's wrong. I told him about your podcast and he wants your input."

Leah: A) this is a great opening. "We have been having a heated debate in the office."

Nick: Love that. Happy to settle it!

Leah: Delighted to be a part of a heated debate at the office.

Nick: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So I think should we go point by point?

Leah: Before we go through the points, I think that you and I should shout out our thoughts on the count of three, see if we're on the same page. We go "One, two, three," and then say whether or not is this coworker correct.

Nick: Okay, yes or no on the count of three. One, two, three. No!

Leah: No!

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Okay. A rebuttal for point one. So he says that, like, people should stand on both sides because it's rude to, like, turn your head to somebody, like, on a step below. Okay. Leah, thoughts on that?

Leah: I just think that's incorrect.

Nick: Yes. And here's why: etiquette often involves two rules that actually conflict with each other. And so you are left with a choice: which rule actually should prevail? And generally speaking, the rule that does the greatest good or does the least harm to the most number of people, that's typically the right move. And so for this, the idea of not inconveniencing others by blocking their path does trump your wanting to not, like, talk to somebody behind you.

Leah: Also, you can just turn. Like, sometimes if I'm—let's just say straight up, I always walk up the escalator. But if I'm ever with somebody and they don't want to walk, I turn. I'm not—I'm sort of sideways, so I'm looking at them side—I'm not talking over my back.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, there's also that. Like, how—how problematic is this body positioning? But point being, if we're worried about, like, the rudeness of turning versus the rudeness of being side to side, like, the etiquette rule about, like, not blocking other people, I think does trump. Point two, the idea of walking up a moving escalator is the same as riding in a speedboat with a paddle, and it's like, yeah. Yeah, it gets you there faster, and so some people prefer that.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Nick: Point three, if everybody stood two abreast, everyone would get there faster. Um, yes, technically speaking, at rush hour, if everybody is standing two by two on every step, the volume of total passengers per hour is going to be higher. That is technically true. However, you've just now averaged it for everybody, so you've made it slower for the people who want to walk, though.

Leah: And also, some people are there as a single. If I'm on a step, and somebody I don't know comes and stands next to me and isn't moving, I would be like, "Are we fighting?"

Nick: It would need to be rush hour where it is packed and everybody's standing on every step. Like, it would have to be that situation because, like, otherwise we're gonna leave a buffer stair.

Leah: [laughs] Yeah. Otherwise—we don't even need to leave a buffer stair. I just don't want you on the same stair with me.

Nick: [laughs] Right? That's also—that actually would be so—if it was an empty escalator and you got on and somebody got on and stood to your left on the same step, and it was like a totally empty escalator, I'm like, "I'm gonna get murdered."

Leah: [laughs] Am I getting punked? I would have to—I would start walking.

Nick: Yeah, I would get away from that.

Leah: I'd be like, okay, I'm just gonna gently jog up this escalator.

Nick: Yeah, that would actually be so weird. So yeah. So no, I mean, you're not gonna get there faster because you have now slowed me down as somebody who would like to walk.

Leah: And then four if you need to get somewhere so fast, you should have left earlier.

Nick: Well, isn't that a little judgy?

Leah: I mean, who knows what happened along the way?

Nick: Well, and also a desire to get somewhere faster does not necessarily have anything to do with being late.

Leah: Very good point, Nick. Very good point.

Nick: I am never late, and I just don't like a lot of time in transit. I don't like connecting flights. I don't like having to, like, wait around for stuff. I would like to, like, just get there sooner. And I think that's just my prerogative.

Leah: I agree a hundred percent. I also—I just immediately thought of those moving walkways at airports.

Nick: Yeah, like the people mover?

Leah: I'm always walking on it. I'm not gonna stand on it. And if I am standing on it, I'm going to stand on the right side with my bag and let people on the left walk through.

Nick: This makes me think of this time I was in North Korea, and it was the day when you're gonna go see the bodies of Kim Jong Un and Kim Il Sung lying in state. And you're put on the people mover that's probably a quarter mile long. Like, it is the longest people mover of your life, and you're not allowed to walk on it.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: Like—like, no one's walking on it. And, like, in North Korea, you're just like, I'm just gonna do what the other people are doing. I'm not gonna, like, go out on a limb in any sort of way. And so it's also the slowest people mover ever. It's probably like one inch per second. Like, it's just like—it's the slowest thing you've ever seen. And so you have people coming towards you on the people mover who have just seen these men lying in state, and they're crying and they're emotional. And they're coming towards you, but they're coming towards you so slowly, and you're making eye contact with these people and you're crossing and you're like, do I look at them? Do I not look at them? It's one of the most uncomfortable people movers I've ever been on. So there's that.

Leah: So I don't know if the coworker caught that, but Nick's just compared not walking on an escalator/people mover as to being in North Korea.

Nick: Yeah. So there's that.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But yeah. No, anytime I think of a slow people mover, I think of that day when it was just like, "Oh, what is happening in my life at the moment?"

Leah: And also who else in our life is like, "You know, this reminds me of the time that I was in North Korea?"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm fun at a dinner party, everybody. And the last point is just it's fine if this coworker wants to stand. Like, if he wants to stand, everybody should be able to stand. It's safer, you know, I guess, and it's fine. You know, sometimes you want to take a break, but to deliberately prevent other people from walking? That's just so rude. Like, what are you doing?

Leah: Yeah. He refuses to let people pass. It seems aggressive.

Nick: It is very aggressive. Right. Because you're trying to impose your etiquette will on others. And that's my job.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] No, but really, like, you know, it's fine if you want to do what you want to do but, like, you're really inconveniencing other people. And you're not gonna change society. By doing this, you're not gonna, like, somehow make this stop.

Leah: And also, I don't think that it continuing is bad. Some people just want to walk.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, I mean, in New York City, I don't know anybody who just will stand there. Yeah. No, it's a good glute workout. It's great. Get your core going.

Leah: Especially in the long ones like 86th Street on the Q.

Nick: Love it! Yeah. Or Hudson Yards? Oh I'm walking that whole thing.

Leah: Sometimes I go back down just to walk up it again.

Nick: Yeah, get your steps in.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So our next question is quote, "I recently encountered an etiquette conundrum I've never experienced before. At a restaurant here in New York City, when the bill came, there were two separate gratuity lines, one for the server and one for the maitre d'. I've dined at plenty of upscale places, but I've never encountered this on a bill before. I panicked and left 20 percent on each line, but realized quickly after this was quite the chunk of change. What is the proper etiquette here? I wouldn't say the maitre d' did anything particularly above and beyond taking our reservation a week in advance and showing us to our table, but I also hesitate to base gratuity off of my perception of a staff person's performance, especially if their compensation depends on it. What would you have done?"

Leah: I would have panicked.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, I think panic is an appropriate response. Sure.

Leah: Also, as somebody who's worked in a restaurant, the people at the front are not getting paid what the people in the—as the waiters are getting paid. We—the waitstaff, we got paid less because of tipping and the front people got paid more, assuming they would rarely be tipped.

Nick: So yes, I think the first question here is like, oh, who does what? So, like, there's the maitre d', the maitre d'hotel. And historically this is like the manager of the front of house. This is like the person supervising the staff, welcoming the guests, assigning tables, taking reservations. Sometimes this person would even be the person who would, like, do some carving at your table or, like, do some salad tossing. I mean, now the person you're talking about, that's a host.

Leah: That's a host.

Nick: That's the person that hands you the buzzer at Cheesecake Factory. That is not a maitre d', although I think we should start referring to that person as the maitre d'.

Leah: I'm fine with that.

Nick: Like, how fun would that be? Like, "Oh, our buzzer went off. Please give this back to the maitre d'. We're ready for our Cheddar Bay biscuits."

Leah: Also, and what is more exciting than when your buzzer goes off? Rarely anything.

Nick: Right? So that's who the maitre d' is I think in this context. It is sort of like the person that's in charge of the dining room. Another term you do actually see sometimes on restaurant bills is 'the captain line.' And that's sort of like a head waiter at a fancy restaurant. So that would be like the person that trains the staff, and that person would probably take your order and drop the check and would help with the pacing of the meal. They would probably do some carving or boning or salading for you. So you do sometimes see a captain's tip line. I was looking into this. Apparently, this started in New York in the '70s. And so the 21 Club, which was a great restaurant, RIP, I really loved it. Their Steak Diane prepared tableside—so good! And what's fun actually about that restaurant is there was all these toys hanging from the ceiling. Have you ever been, Leah?

Leah: No!

Nick: So it has so much history. Like, they had this special, like, drawer behind the bar that they could shove bottles in if the police came during prohibition that went directly to the New York City's, like, sewer system. But in the restaurant from the ceiling, there was all these toys hanging, like little toy airplanes, like little toy helmets, like football helmets. And you're like, "Oh, how cute!" But each one of those toys was given by, like, the CEO of, like, some major corporation. So, like, that little UPS truck, like, oh, the CEO of UPS was, like, dining and they gave a toy to the restaurant. Or, like, oh, that little airplane? Oh, that's Air Force One. President Clinton was dining and, like, left one. And so the ceiling is covered in, like, these titan of industry symbols.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: So it was very, like, Wolves of Wall Street.

Leah: So cool!

Nick: So in the '70s, the 21 Club was apparently having problems with European tourists not tipping the captain, and so they got American Express to modify their check slips to add a separate line for the captain in addition to the waiter. And so apparently, that's where this started. So, like, oh, isn't that interesting?

Leah: Very interesting! Also but in that circumstance, the captain you said is taking the—taking the order, is doing, like, at table. That's different than seating somebody.

Nick: Right. Yeah, so captain would be different than the maitre d'. Right. And so actually some restaurants would suggest in those days you do, like, 15 percent of the waiter, five percent of the captain, three percent of the maitre d'.

Leah: Really?

Nick: I mean, things have changed. So, like, this is no longer the advice, I think, for our letter-writer, the idea is if the maitre d' or the captain has done something above and beyond, like something unusually nice, or they did a special menu for you maybe, or whatever it was, if you want to acknowledge that, or you want them in your good graces for the next time, you know, sometimes the maitre d' some cash gets you a better table in the future. Like, you are welcome to tip whatever you want to tip. Otherwise, I would do your normal tip, your 20 percent, your 20-whatever percent, and I would put that on the waiter line, and then I would write 'Distribute as appropriate' right under that. And so that way the captain or the maitre d' knows, like, "Oh, thinking of you, but we're gonna leave it to you all to pool your tips and decide who did what for us. And you guys decide what is fair." And I think that would be a way to handle it.

Leah: Interesting. Yeah, I just haven't seen it. So when I read it, of course I started sweating. And I of course would have done the same thing. I would have dropped 20 percent even if I had to, like, open up a new credit card, because I wouldn't know what to do.

Nick: And I actually was trying to think the last time I was in a restaurant where I saw this. I mean, I'm sure it was in New York. Yeah. I mean, I can't—I mean, there's just not restaurants like this anymore, like the Lutèces, the La Cote Basque, the Le Cirque, like, they're just—I don't think this is happening at Massa or Per Se or 11 Madison. Like, I just don't think this is happening anymore. So yeah, very curious to see where this dining experience was. Although, I mean, it's only a matter of time before this just goes away completely. So, like, I feel like this is increasingly irrelevant.

Leah: Really? It seems like we're tipping more.

Nick: We are definitely tipping more, but the idea that, oh, there's a separate line for each individual person, in my dining experience, that is not happening.

Leah: I was recently at a very lovely restaurant, and the maitre d' took us to the most lovely table and was, you know, so friendly. That was the extent of our whole interaction.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: But I was like, should I be slipping some cashola?

Nick: I mean, I think if you want to be recognized in the future, yeah. I mean, that's kind of how tips—that's one of the reasons why we do tip. It's for the service I have received, but it's also to bank some goodwill in the future. So, you know, tipping does have that effect.

Leah: But I mean, we just put it into their hand like we're in Goodfellas?

Nick: Yeah. On the way out of the door, you could be like, "Thank you so much. We loved our table. Thank you for making our dining experience so wonderful." And then you have to give the money in a handshake.

Leah: Okay.

Nick: In a future episode, we will have to talk about how to actually give cash tips in a slick way.

Leah: Well, I've given cash tips to—I've had to pay other comics when people had to leave, and I had to slip it to them on stage when we were shaking hands.

Nick: Oh, I love that!

Leah: But what I did in this circumstance is I didn't know what to do, so I just overtipped the waiter. [laughs]

Nick: Yes. I don't know what the tipping situation is in that restaurant, so hard to say, I guess, whether or not the maitre d' would see any of that.

Leah: And then in my mind I was like, "I have to start carrying cash," because I was like, should I go up to the maitre d' and be like, "Do you have Venmo?" And that felt so gauche. So ...

Nick: Although I feel like that's a world we should move towards. Like, "Oh, can I just, like, tap my phone on your head and, like, use Apple Pay?"

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Like, it would be nice if we just had embedded chips at this point.

Leah: When does one carry cash anymore? So in my—I was like, oh, and I would like to recognize this in the future.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I'm gonna carry cash.

Nick: The other thing you could do is send a note to the restaurant the next day saying, like, "Had a great time last night. I want to just give a special shout out to the maitre d, who gave us a great table and really made our dining experience wonderful. So just wanted to give you all that feedback that, like, this person really made our night."

Leah: You know, I'm gonna do that because it's very recent. So that's a great idea, Nick.

Nick: Yeah. And I think that's also nice because also, so often people only complain, and so to get, like, a nice note, you know, in some cases this is very nice. And next time you go to the restaurant, if you see them again, you could certainly make it up to them, I guess.

Leah: But I didn't do anything horribly wrong, right? It's normal to just be sat and not tip.

Nick: No, of course not. No, I mean, it's their job to be nice to you and show you to a table. And I mean, that's part of their experience, and I don't think they really went above and beyond sort of the normal for you.

Leah: They just sat us. They just were lovely.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: I just want to be like—you know?

Nick: I mean, if loveliness is above and beyond, then what a world we're living in. But ...

Leah: [laughs] I just really want to be Goodfellas is what it is. I want to be like, "Here's for you and here's for you and here's for you."

Nick: And you out there? Here's for you. So if you have questions for us, let us know. You can let us know through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: So I was so glad that we had this this week, because I have one that's so complicated that I can't tell which one it is.

Nick: Oh, what? Okay, well, start from the beginning. I'm sure I'll be able to tell you which is which.

Leah: It was just a crisis.

Nick: Okay. All right. So what has happened?

Leah: So here we go. So I'm walking into Pilates.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: As I'm walking in, I get a text from somebody that's upsetting.

Nick: Okay, so you're not in the right headspace.

Leah: Not in the right—I'm obsessing. I was going over and over and over and over again. I go in, I walk up to the counter, I check in. Out of my eyeline, I see this person that in my mind I think, "I know that person." And they sort of smile. I smile, but then I go set up my place still obsessing, obsessing, obsessing, obsessing. Then the teacher sees this person that I saw previously and was like, "Oh, I haven't seen you in forever!" And they have, like, a hug or whatever. And then after they stopped doing that, I remember where I know this woman from and I go, "Oh my goodness! Sorry, I didn't recognize—" and then I started saying where I remembered her from. She stops me and goes, "I've never spoken to you."

Nick: [gasps]

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Nick: What? I—what is that tone?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: What?

Leah: So then I felt uncomfortable.

Nick: That's such an aggressive way to respond to that.

Leah: It was so aggressive. So then I'm flummoxed at this point.

Nick: What? "I've never spoken to you?" I'm sorry, can we just pause on that?

Leah: [laughs] Yeah, I know. It was harsh.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And then—so then I—we're picking up weights. It's like a weight class. And then so I say to her—we're standing next to each other at this point, so I—I'm trying to, like, say something to, like, smooth whatever that was because it felt awkward.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: But then as I'm starting to say it, the teacher is talking. So then the teacher stops talking to look at me to be like, "Don't talk when I'm talking." So then I felt so guilty that I was talking when the teacher was talking, so then I go, "Oh, sorry." And then I just stopped talking. And then I get onto my reformer. And at this point, between the text and this lady going, "I've never spoken to you," and then me being the person who talked over the teacher ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: My brain is exploding.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: It's just so—everything that I feel horrible about. And then after the class, the girl looks at me and she goes, "Oh yeah. No, I totally remember when we met each other."

Nick: Oh, a little late! Wow! Okay, so from an etiquette perspective, etiquette lens here, it sounds like whoever sent you the text sent a text that maybe they shouldn't have sent or maybe shouldn't have sent it in that way, or maybe there's some phrasing issues there.

Leah: Definitely.

Nick: So potential etiquette crime with the text you received. I think the real etiquette crime here is the woman who's like, "I've never spoken to you" because that's just not the script for that encounter.

Leah: That is rude, right? It threw me off so much.

Nick: Like, "Oh, I think you're mistaken."

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Or, like, "Oh, I'm not sure or don't remember." Like, any of these things would be fine, but a definitive, like, "We've never spoken?" What is that?

Leah: Right? That is rude, right?

Nick: Yeah, of course it is. So that's rude. Well, and it's also another crime because she was both rude and wrong.

Leah: And wrong!

Nick: Which is not a combination that I find acceptable. So that's really actually the problem. Like, okay, you're rude but correct. All right, not great. You're rude and wrong? Oh no, that's not a world I want to live in. Then there's the you talking during class. So I don't think ...

Leah: Which I apologized for immediately, but I felt horrible about. Mortifying!

Nick: Yes. I mean, you were shamed in the moment.

Leah: I was shamed.

Nick: So I don't know if that's great. I think definitely that's something we could work on for all the parties involved. But yeah, I think if we're gonna really hone in, it's just the "I don't remember you," and then, like, "Oh, I guess I do."

Leah: That really threw me for a loop.

Nick: Because you do remember this person and they're like, "Oh, we've never spoken," and now you're like, "Oh. Well then why do I think I know you?"

Leah: Yeah, because then you're like, "Oh, am I losing my mind?"

Nick: [laughs] Right. So, well, I'm sorry this happened to you. Hopefully this was just a one off.

Leah: Well, I'm going back tomorrow, same teacher. And we'll see if that person's there, and I'm just going to be—what I've decided is I'm just gonna be completely to myself. And whether I know somebody or don't know somebody, I'm not gonna say anything.

Nick: Yeah, I think to not be friendly and not smile and not make eye contact with anybody.

Leah: [laughs] Really seems to be a punishable offense.

Nick: [laughs] Well, for me what should be punishable, I have a vent. And so I was recently on vacation in Bermuda.

Leah: Ooh!

Nick: It was actually very nice, and it was a great escape. Actually, I went because I was having, like, a very long week, and I googled the phrase, "Where do you go when you have to get out of New York City immediately?"

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And I really—this is a true browser history search result. And one of the top choices is Bermuda. And I had points, there was a hotel that had availability, nonstop flights. I was like, "I'll be there tomorrow." So I had a great time. And so this is a vent because this hotel had a hot tub. How nice! And this is a 10 foot by 10 foot hot tub which is 100 square feet.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: And there were four people who knew each other in the hot tub. And they decided we are gonna each occupy one of the four corners, and we're gonna have a conversation among ourselves in this space. And why this is a vent is because it does give plausible deniability of an etiquette crime, but it's sort of like they purposely arranged themselves in this way to make it very uncomfortable for anybody else to get into this hot tub, because my choices are to sit in between them or in the very middle of the hot tub.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Either way, like, how awkward is that? This random stranger coming into the hot tub when you four friends are, like, chatting? Like, right?

Leah: I like the idea of you going in the—the center.

Nick: [laughs] Right. I'm just gonna stand in the middle and just like you're gonna all be talking around me.

Leah: And then sort of point and—when everybody talks like a traffic controller.

Nick: Yeah. So it kind of reminded me of people who, like, on a bus or a train will, like, put their bag on the seat next to them in such a way where, like, they know it's rude. You—everybody knows it's rude to save a seat for yourself and hope somebody doesn't sit next to you. Like, we all know it's rude, and we try to put our bag in a plausibly deniable way. Like, "Oh, I didn't realize my bag was next to me. Oh! Oh, I'll move it if you'd like to ask to sit down." And it felt very that. It's like, "Oh, if I wanted to get into the hot tub with these people, of course they would let me. This is a hotel with lots of guests, and this is an enormous 100-square foot hot tub." But it was like, oh, they definitely had the vibe of, like, "Oh, please don't." And so I did not. I did not. But it's sort of like I felt this was rude. I felt like they were being a little rude here.

Leah: They have taken over.

Nick: They took over. Yeah. I mean, what they should have done is try to consolidate themselves in one corner or one side.

Leah: Get a half! Take a half!

Nick: Yeah, half would have been fine, because then I could have been on the other half and that would not have, like, been awkward. But yeah, they would have left me no choice that wasn't awkward. And they wanted to make it awkward for someone. That was their whole MO. And so I was like, "Huh. Noted. And I don't like that."

Leah: I do feel—like, I have some friends who enjoy when it's awkward.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And it might be fun to somehow get my brain to be like, "We're gonna be somebody who enjoys when it's awkward." So if you're gonna be awkward by taking all four, I'm gonna go sit in the middle.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And just really up that, just to see what life is like that way.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I wish I were that person.

Leah: There are people like that.

Nick: Yes. No, there's lots of people like this. Yeah. No, I mean how—how wonderful if we could actually be these types of people who actually enjoyed, celebrated, looked forward to awkward situations.

Leah: I'm gonna see if I can A)—or from earlier, I'm gonna try to say "It's a revelation" more often, and then I'm going to be like, "Let's be awkward." I mean, in stand up, what's funny is that I can do it in stand up.

Nick: Yes. On stage you can do most things..

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: It's just when we get off stage that things get a little dicey.

Leah: You're just like, "I am—whoo!—fragile!"

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I've learned that pepper-salt, salt-pepper is flexible.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I actually think it is a little flexible. Yeah.

Leah: And that the idea that I came up with up top that you may have to just shake it and see what's in it in your hand, is not horrible because it seems like there is no hard and fast rule.

Nick: Oh. Well, I did not sign off on that.

Leah: No, I know you didn't, but I—I've signed off on it.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And then you don't throw that away on the floor. Obviously, some people do the salt over the shoulder. I don't know what that is.

Nick: I don't have the emotional strength to go back to this.

Leah: [laughs] I know. I wanted to wait 'til you were weary at the end to bring that back up. [laughs]

Nick: And I learned that I don't need a lab rat because I have you for all of my fudge making. [laughs]

Leah: It's not not true.

Nick: Well, thank you Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery, if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want you to make sure you follow us on all the things, because we have fun things cooking and we want you to know about them first. And so if you follow us on the social medias and get our newsletter, you will be in the know and we want you to be in the know.

Leah: In the loop!

Nick: And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. So ready, set, go!

Leah: I'm gonna send out a huge Cordials of Kindness to our from-the-beginning listener, Lori B. She's a huge part of the Wolves family. We've had so many great conversations on the socials. Absolutely wonderful. You are a shining light. We appreciate you so much!

Nick: Yes, OG listener, for sure. And for me, I want to read a nice review we just got which is quote, "Nick and Leah are like Johnny Weir and Tara Lipinski of manners. You need them in your life."

Leah: I love this one so much. I love it so much.

Nick: [laughs] The real question is: which one are you?

Leah: That's so funny! That's exactly what I thought. I was like, "Who's who?"

Nick: I think we know.

Leah: [laughs] I think we know.

Nick: So love that. And if you use Apple Podcasts please leave us a nice review. We really love it.

Leah: And it makes such a big difference for the podcast. We really appreciate it.

Nick: We do.

Nick: So please do that. And thank you!

Leah: Thank you!