Escaping Unwanted Potlucks, Avoiding Teenaged Guests, Opting Out of Thank You Notes, and More

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And we had so many great questions from you all in the wilderness ...

Leah: [howls]

Nick: ... that we have a bonus episode. So here we go! Our first question is quote, "My mother, who has deemed herself as the etiquette police of her social circle in her medium-sized town in Indiana, has deemed it her duty to teach men that it is unacceptable to shake a woman's hand unless the woman extends her hand first. When she told me of this first incident, I was understandably shocked that she would do such a thing ,and really hurt for the men who have no idea why in the world my mother is acting this way. So imagine walking through a door that a man has opened for you, and he extends his hand to greet you at an event. She just looks at him as if his hand extension is totally daft and proceeds through the door. She is adamant that this is the right thing to do. How do I help her understand that this is inappropriate and straight up rude?"

Leah: I always get anxious telling people how they should talk to their moms.

Nick: Mmm. That's—okay, that's a great place to start, right? Yeah. Because, like, is this even an etiquette question?

Leah: Well, it's an etiquette question in that her mom is saying this is what good etiquette is.

Nick: But then the second question is, like, how do we tell her this?

Leah: Yeah. And I mean, I could say how I would tell my mom, but I don't know how—I wouldn't want to tell somebody else how to talk to their mom.

Nick: [laughs] Right. All right, well let's not do that then. But let's talk about just this idea in general of should a man wait for a woman to extend their hand? Because that's really the etiquette question.

Leah: A) I've never heard about this, and I would like to be treated the way that everybody treats everybody else. And so please shake my hand.

Nick: So there is a "rule," quote-unquote, where yes, a man should wait for a woman to extend their hand. That is a thing that exists, and I think this is what your mother feels. And there's a lot of people who feel this way. I guess the question is, like, is this still the rule? Because, like, things change. You know, like, there was a time until 1974 where if you were a single woman, a bank didn't have to give you a loan to buy a house or you had to get your husband's permission. So, like, you know, stuff changes.

Leah: I know. I was going to say that it feels very similar to a woman not being able to get her own credit card. I want you to shake my hand. I actually was at a comedy show with two comics who are men—so it was three of us—and the booker came up and shook both of the men's hands,

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: And didn't shake my hand. And then ...

Nick: Well, were they just waiting for you to extend your hand?

Leah: I know. Now I was like, "Were they waiting for me?" But they then actually didn't even, like, make eye contact with me. They wanted to act like I wasn't one of the comics. And one of the other comics, who was a male was like, "She's on the show." And so I feel like for so long, women have been trying to be like, "Hey, I'm one of the players."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: "Shake my hand." That for me personally, I want people to shake my hand just like they would shake anybody else's hand.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that's where I kind of come down on this. And I think we actually want to remember the forest for the trees, too. Like, I think the rule here is really like, we should greet people in the way they want to be greeted. So, like, there are some people who don't want the hug, some people who might not want a handshake, some people who want just, like, to stand there and not do anything. And I think we always want to kind of read the room, like, oh, what is the greeting I'm about to do? What kind of greeting do they want? And I think handshakes is sort of the universal baseline, but not everybody wants that, and that's fine. But I think the idea that, like, one gender gets to decide that always, I don't know if we live in that world anymore.

Leah: I also think it's weird if you do one greeting for all—everybody except for the person who's not the same gender. It's not—if someone goes to shake your hand, you can say, "I'm not a handshaker."

Nick: Yeah. And I think that's fine.

Leah: But also, we don't want to, like, have somebody extend their hand, and then we just look at them like they're an idiot. Like, that's hurt—that's gonna hurt their feelings.

Nick: I mean, what this feels like is if we were dining and you asked me to pass the salt, you're like, "Hey, would you pass the salt?" And I just looked at you, and I just, like, gave you this disgusted look because you didn't say, "Would you please pass the salt?" And I refuse to pass the salt to you because you didn't say 'please.' That's what this feels like.

Leah: It doesn't even feel like that to me, because this person isn't not saying 'please.' You know what I mean? They're just doing what everybody does, which is extend their hand to greet you.

Nick: Yeah. So I guess what do we do with this? What do we do with this? I mean, I think if you actually encountered this person and I got that response, I would definitely know, oh, you're not a handshaker. I would remember that about you.

Leah: I mean, you know, it's your mom, and you know how you communicate with your mom. And maybe we could try a conversation about how we feel like this was a thing people did in a time when, you know, women weren't voting.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Or that also men aren't going to understand why, and so they're just gonna end up feeling hurt. And I mean, maybe either one of those is a conversation to be had, but I don't know, really—I wouldn't want to weigh in on how people talk to their parents.

Nick: Yeah. And I think that's fair. And I think the last thought on this is just etiquette often involves multiple etiquette rules that overlap or conflict. And so yeah, okay, let's say there's an etiquette rule that talks about handshaking, but there's also an etiquette rule about, like, just being kind and considerate to other people and, like, pretending not to notice if there's a faux pas and, like, just, like, moving on. And so then the question is like, oh, which etiquette rule is, like, more important here? And I think the etiquette rule of, like, oh, let's not make people feel super self conscious about maybe breaking a rule, I think that would be better here. And I would focus on that and, like, just let it go.

Leah: Which one? Telling your mom just to do the—or that our letter-writer is letting it go?

Nick: Oh. Well I mean, in general, if you feel this way, I would just let it go, and I would just focus on just being just mindful of other people's feelings. I would focus on that more than, like, oh, did they extend their hand when I wasn't ready for it? Like, that's what I would focus on. In terms of our letter-writer? I don't know. I guess you have to decide, do you want to pick this battle? I don't know if you're gonna win this battle. So, like, up to you. Your mileage may vary.

Leah: I guess I will say this. If it wasn't somebody's mom, I would be very like, "Hey, the reason we shake hands now is because we want a seat at the table. We're working for a seat at the table. And what people do at the table is they shake hands. They don't say, 'Oh, I get—I have to extend first because I'm the lady,' because we as a group have been trying to get past that to be equal partners."

Nick: Right.

Leah: But how one speaks to their parent is not for me to say, I think.

Nick: Right. Yeah. And I guess that is what makes this a little tricky.

Leah: And I also think that, as Nick said earlier, if we aren't being greeted the way we want to be greeted, the way we would deal with it is not by being like, throwing a, "Oh, are you—" we just go, "Oh, I'm not a handshaker." Or we turn our hand over to be like, do a dainty shake or ...

Nick: Oh, enchanté. Yes. Charmed, I'm sure.

Leah: I know a lot of people who don't handshake anymore. They do a fist bump, and I'll go to shake, and they just put their fist out. And I get it. Oh, you don't shake anymore. You don't like touching hands. You know, it's ...

Nick: Right.

Leah: I get this social cue. I'm not being insulted. I'm getting—they're telling me this was what makes me comfortable, so then I do what makes them comfortable.

Nick: And in the end, I think we just want to realize that, like, oh, what was the point of this greeting? It was just like, to connect with you and to acknowledge your existence. And it was supposed to be sort of like a friendly, warm gesture. So I think if we could just take it in the spirit in which it was given, that would really be helpful.

Leah: Yeah. And I think, don't we want to be connected with? Yes! So let's not close that door.

Nick: Right?

Leah: Let's not close that door on people.

Nick: Yeah. So feel free to explain all that to your mom, I guess.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So our next question is quote, "I have a new boss who's very nice. And for a few weeks, about five of us in the department have gathered together to eat lunch. Recently, our boss started cooking lunch in the office while he's on Zoom calls, and now he wants to do a potluck. Me and one of my coworkers are not into it and have been awkwardly saying, 'No, thank you' when he offers us food. It's happened twice so far and it's turned into a full blown potluck. And now he's asking for donations to cover his food costs. How can I refuse without being awkward and being the only one out? I just want to go back to eating my microwave Trader Joe's butter chicken and wish this never happened."

Leah: Honestly, this sounds like a nightmare.

Nick: Nightmare! Oh, there's so many—oh, so awkward. Oh, it's so awkward!

Leah: And I'm sure there are people that are like, "I love this! Let's do a potluck and eat together." I'm sure there are those people. I personally am not one.

Nick: I think that this is at the office is why this is hard.

Leah: No, the office is what makes it hard. And it's also that it's the boss that's doing it.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But I think that's very inappropriate for the boss to be like, "I'm gonna change how we do lunch and then ask everybody for money and hope that you get on board." Like, no.

Nick: The asking for money part ...

Leah: Asking for money part is wild!

Nick: That actually—that's too far. Yes. Now this is a mandatory thing where now it's costing me money? Like, what have we done here?

Leah: What have we done? What's going on?

Nick: I mean, from the boss's perspective, he's just like, "Cool boss. I'm the cool boss. I'm cooking. We're doing potlucks. Like, oh, isn't this fun? I'm the cool boss."

Leah: Yeah, for sure. I don't think he's like, "I want to take money from my employees for food." I don't think that's what's running under his thoughts.

Nick: No. He's like, "Oh, aren't these potlucks fun? But, like, oh, it's a little expensive out of my own pocket. So, like, let's—let's share the cost."

Leah: Yeah. "I'll cook for everybody. Let's just all pitch in and it'll be a fun group."

Nick: Right.

Leah: You would hope that a person who's thinking that way would also understand that there are people that don't want to eat with the group, want to take care of their own food needs.

Nick: Yeah, I mean, I guess, is this happening every week? How often do you think this is happening?

Leah: It's happened twice so far.

Nick: Okay. So I mean, it's definitely a pattern. It's a thing. I mean, can we just be out of the office? Like, "Oh, I have some errands to run. I'm so sorry, I can't make today's potluck." Is that—I think we could do something like that.

Leah: But can't we also just eat the food that we want to eat? You know what I mean? Now I gotta show up at work, I gotta do my job, and now I have to eat food that I don't want to eat. What if I'm on an eating plan? What if I have eating restrictions?

Nick: True, but it feels like the idea that, "oh, I have to actually now sit down and eat with everybody" Is part of it. It's not actually the menu is the problem. I mean, could I just bring my trader Joe's butter chicken? Which ps, is that good? I've never had that. I like butter chicken.

Leah: I'm sure it is. Trader Joe's has really delightful meals.

Nick: Yeah, I should check that out. Is it like, "I can't have my own thing and I'll just sit with you and hang out?" Like, Could we do that? Would that be a solution?

Leah: There's no mention of whether or not they're eating together, so I think that's an option.

Nick: Right. Like, "Oh, I'm not gonna do the potluck thing because I need to eat my own thing, but I want to hang out with you so, like, I'll hang out with you. And that actually would allow you to opt out of, like, the donating money part because, oh, I'm not part of your thing.

Leah: And if anybody pushes back on you wanting to eat your own food, that's wild.

Nick: Right. Yeah, I think we could do that. So we have to tough it out. We do have to socialize during the potluck, but I think we could eat our own food and opt out of the participating with the bringing the food or the money part.

Leah: I'm gonna be straight up with you. I would opt out of socializing. I'm working all day and I get 30 minutes to eat? I'm not ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: But that is a thing you could do if you wanted to be gracious and be like, "I'm doing this for—" you know, whatever reason. Or you could swing by and say hello. I also think, though, it's completely within your rights as a human being who needs to, like, reset during the day and take your—you know, your butter chicken half hour or hour to, like, read your book or go through your emails or—you know, that's what that is.

Nick: Right. I mean, I guess part of me feels like there's two paths. One is just tough it out. How often is this happening? Can we tough out this 45-minute potluck? Yes, it's gonna cost you some money, and that's the cost of doing business. And maybe you'll get ahead at work or it's good, you know, professionally to bond. Like, maybe there's some upside, or it's just one of those unpleasant things of life. Maybe that's just what you gotta do. Sometimes etiquette's not satisfying, but maybe that's the solution. The other idea is like, oh, maybe we just have a private conversation with the boss. "Hey, Boss, love these potlucks. But for me, my lunch time is actually really important for me to, like, have some me time during the work day. And so I was wondering if it'd be okay, like, if I sat it out?" Maybe that's the solution. Just say, like, "This is not good for me. And, like, is it cool if, like, I didn't go?" And see how strongly they feel about it. And maybe they're like, "That's totally cool." And then you know. Or maybe they're like, "Oh, it's really important that you're there," in which case, then it's a professional obligation.

Leah: I really like both of these things that Nick just said. I often go to things I don't want to go to.

Nick: Oh gosh, all the time.

Leah: I'm gonna have to pay for parking, because I know that it's going to behoove me in the long run, and I just think I'm gonna tough it out.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So if it's one of those things, yes. On the other hand, you deserve to have your regroup time. And I think going to the boss, as Nick said, and be like, hey, this is sort of like, the part of the day that I use to," whatever it is you say, "and I like to eat this certain kind of food. And, you know, I just wanted to let you—" because I'm sure it seems almost wild to me that if you went to them and explained—my guess is that they hadn't thought of that. They probably think, "Oh, this is the most fun ever. Everybody's thinking, this is the most fun."

Nick: Yeah. No, I think the boss is like, "I am so awesome, and everybody loves potlucks."

Leah: So I think as soon as you bring it up, they'll be like, "Oh no, do what works for you." That's what I think. And I can't imagine that they would push back on that.

Nick: It would be surprising. But letter-writer? Try one of these options and let us know how it goes.

Leah: I will say I used to work for this company that started bringing in food for lunch for all of us to share. And in the beginning, I was like, "Oh, this is so lovely!" And then I realized that that's just how they got us to work through lunch.

Nick: Yeah. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Leah: And so I do believe that a person is allowed their time. And if it's just something else getting dressed up as you not being able to take your time, take your time.

Nick: I mean, we all need some butter chicken time.

Leah: Butter chicken!

Nick: Yes. BCT.

Leah: Butter chicken time .

Nick: [laughs] Put that on the pillow. That'd be a weird pillow.

Leah: [laughs] People would come over, "What is that?" "Butter chicken time."

Nick: Yeah. Obviously.

Leah: Obviously.

Nick: Everybody knows about BCT.

Leah: BCT!

Nick: So our next question is quote, "We have some close friends who we haven't seen for many years. We would like to invite them to visit us at our expense, but they have a teenager that we'd like them to leave at home. How do we ask this of them without being rude?"

Leah: Do you want me to try out what I wrote?

Nick: I would love to see. Yes. Cause I imagine, like, this could give you anxiety.

Leah: No, this would not give me anxiety.

Nick: Okay. Interesting. Okay. What did you write?

Leah: Anything where you can handle something in advance doesn't give me anxiety. It's when something's already happened and I don't know how I was supposed to handle it, that's what's giving me anxiety.

Nick: Oh. Oh, it's the replay in your mind?

Leah: Yes. It's the replay that gives me anxiety.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So this I feel like you could up top some version of—this was just me riffing and looking back, I can't even read my writing, so I just have to guess what I riffed on—was essentially saying, "Hey, we'd love to do a couples weekend with you."

Nick: Ah!

Leah: "Our treat for the four of us. Let me know if that's something you'd be interested in."

Nick: Ooh, I love that! Okay. No, I think that nails it. I wrote something similar, which is, "We'd love to have an adults weekend with you all at our place. Do let us know what might work for your schedule." So I think 'couples' is a nicer way to phrase that. [laughs]

Leah: I think 'couples' is because then you're not being specifically like, "Everybody who's not your teenager."

Nick: [laughs] Right. No, 'couples?' That's a little more finessed. Yeah. And then what happens is then there'll be some conversation where they'll be like, "Oh, well, what about Toby?" And you'll be like, "Oh, I was really hoping this to be a couples weekend. Totally understand that that's not convenient for you right now."

Leah: Yeah. And then you just end it.

Nick: Right. Right. I mean, I think it's kind of as simple as that.

Leah: Yeah. And I also—like, if somebody invited me to something and they were like, "Hey, do you want to do a couple's weekend just the four of us?" I would understand what that meant. Oh, I'm being invited. They're gonna pay for me, and then I can decide is that something I'm comfortable with or not? But I understand what the implication is.

Nick: Yes. Oh. Because you're a well adjusted, polite person. There are a lot of people out there who receive invitations and then think that it is within their rights to add any number of extra people to this invitation. So ...

Leah: That is true.

Nick: Oh, yeah. I mean, the number of people who have received wedding invitations and then thought, like, Oh, I could add ten people to this, no problem." Oh, I mean, this is happening all over the place.

Leah: And then I think you just hit right back with what Nick said, which was, "Oh, we were envisioning this as a couple's weekend. Understand if that doesn't work for you." And then we move on.

Nick: Boom! Yeah. It's not a negotiation.

Leah: Yeah. And then we just leave the conversation.

Nick: So our next question is quote, "I was recently invited to a baby shower. I was unable to attend, so instead I decided to send a gift from their online gift registry. As part of the checkout process, the website asked for my address so the hosts could send a thank-you note for the gift. It also included an option that I could check that said, 'I do not need a thank you note.' I, without much thought, did not check the box, and now I'm wondering if this was rude of me. It seems unkind to give soon-to-be parents more work to do. Thoughts?"

Leah: I'm gonna say up top you already sent a gift to a baby shower that you weren't even attending.

Nick: Right. And to be clear, that was optional. Yeah, you were not obligated to send a gift to a shower if you're not attending.

Leah: So you are a lovely person.

Nick: Totally. But was it rude of them to demand a thank-you note?

Leah: I just think it's a weird question to have 'I don't need a thank-you note' on a form.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it's just like, should we suck out all the humanity out of everything completely? Is that just what we should do? For any human interaction, should we just, like, suck out any of the humanity of it? And it's sort of like, we've already made this a completely electronic, digital, virtual transaction. I've seen an image of something on a screen. I have clicked something. I've sent virtual money to pay for it, and I will never see the thing. And so, like, do I need nothing back? I mean, could we just automate all this? Maybe there should just be a system that when you are gonna have a baby, you automatically send something to your address book, my address book automatically accepts the notice and automatically sends you money back without me having to do anything. Like, is that where we need to go with all this? Just make it completely automated?

Leah: In case you are not sure, Nick is being sarcastic.

Nick: [laughs] But it's like, is that where we're going? Is that ultimately convenient? It's like, we have already sucked out the pleasure of deciding what I think you might like because you've given me a shopping list with your registry. So, like, I can't even come up with something I think you might like better. Like, you know, I like to give, like, the children's books that I grew up with that I think are classic that I really loved.

Leah: That's so funny. That's what I give too.

Nick: Right! But it's like, oh, maybe you don't want that. Maybe you don't want me to inscribe it with some thoughtful note about your future and how this book helped me. I mean, that caterpillar was very hungry. Was very hungry. And look what happened.

Leah: Yeah, but I also think when people give a registry, they do want the thoughtful things. They're just giving you an idea if you didn't know what they needed.

Nick: Yes. I mean, it should be optional, for sure. But I think the point being is, like, we've automated all of this sort of gifting and thoughtfulness. Like, so much of thoughtfulness has now been automated, and then it actually is not thoughtful anymore. So I think the least you can do is just send a thank-you note. The least you can do is send a thank-you note. So I think, yeah, the fact that you're being asked this question, I think is actually a little rude.

Leah: I've never been a new parent. I can imagine there's so many things happening. You're exhausted. I would rather there was no question, and you took a picture of yourself holding the item when you received it and wrote, "I'm so thrilled, thank you!" And just send me that. Text it to me, which I think that would take a very short period of time.

Nick: And I think that would be totally great. I mean, what this question is saying is: I don't want any acknowledgement of gratitude. I don't need any acknowledgement from these people that they liked it or are thankful for it. And it's like, I don't want to live in a world in which that's okay.

Leah: I also would rather—if I had to choose between not being acknowledged and you telling me to say it was okay that I'm not being acknowledged, I would rather just not be acknowledged. I don't want to then be asked to be told it was okay.

Nick: I don't wanna participate in that. Yeah, I don't wanna be an accessory to this. Yeah.

Leah: So I don't think our letter-writer, that you should feel bad.

Nick: Mm-mm. Yes. I think this should be unchecked. I think we do need to require that there needs to be some expression for gratitude for all gifts. Yes. I think this is just a baseline for society, and I don't think we wanna have checkboxes that allow people to opt out of this.

Leah: We can send something lovely—a lovely text, a voice memo. Just some acknowledgement.

Nick: Yeah. Acknowledgement. Yes. I don't need hand-engraved, long, multi-page thank you essays. Like, I don't need that. I just need an acknowledgment that, like, oh, you liked the thing I did for you. I just want you to close that loop. Because otherwise, the only thing I have is a tracking number that shows it was delivered. That would be the only way I know whether or not you got the thing. And that even doesn't tell me if you got it. It just tells me that UPS thinks you got it.

Leah: It's true. I want the loop closed. Did it happen? Did you get it?

Nick: Yeah. That's all.

Leah: That's all.

Nick: Just close the loop.

Leah: Do a photo shoot with the baby and the things. And then I get to see a picture of your baby. How fun!

Nick: Yeah. Oh, there's so many ways to close that loop. Yes. The closing the loop is not hard.

Leah: People at home are like, "Have you had a baby, Leah? We don't have time for a photo shoot with a baby. We're tired. We're exhausted." I get that. As soon as that came out of my mouth, I was like, probably a little much, but you get what I'm saying.

Nick: And if you are running a website where you are selling gifts and this is on your website, I would like you to contact me and I would like you to explain to me why you have it set up this way. And I'd like to hear more about your thoughts, because I have thoughts on this myself, and I would like to discuss them with you.

Leah: I just enjoy anything that wants you to participate in your own thing.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. At the end of the day, I think that's what it is. Like, oh, I want to participate in the destruction of society.

Leah: You're like, "You don't need this, right?"

Nick: "That's not important to you, right?"

Leah: "You want me to tell you what you're doing wrong, right?"

Nick: So our next thing is a bonkers.

Leah: Bonkers!

Nick: And it's quote, "I once had a male dentist ask me during an appointment, 'How does your husband feel about your yellow teeth?'"

Leah: Sorry, that was a moment pause for me passing out.

Nick: [laughs] Um, I mean, can you imagine being in the dentist chair and then, like, this is a—this is something that's said to your face?

Leah: I can. And this is a person right here who would not shake a woman's hand until she extended it. This is what we get in exchange for that. Somebody asking how your husband likes your teeth.

Nick: [laughs] And how are you—what are you supposed to—what do you say to this?

Leah: I feel like I would close my mouth and just walk right out. I'd be like, "How does your significant other deal with your attitude problem?"

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that's so—it's so rude. It's so rude.

Leah: A) it's a double rude. A) I'm letting you know that I think your teeth are—to borrow a phrase from the hilarious comic Jackie Monahan—'butter patties.'

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] That's what she calls her teeth, butter patties. I'm letting you know that you got butter patties for teeth. And then I'm gonna let you know that I think that your husband is upset about it. And is he weighing in? Is he letting you out of the house this way? Is he letting you out? Do you have a note from your husband allowing you to walk around with these yellow teeth?

Nick: That's—I think that's really why this is outrageous. It's the idea, like, "Oh, has your husband signed off on this?"

Leah: Well, it's like a one-two punch where the second punch is significantly worse.

Nick: Yeah. Wow. So this is a bonkers.

Leah: Bonkers!

Nick: So thank you for sending it to us. And you out there, if you have a bonkers story or an etiquette crime or just a regular question, let us know.

Leah: Please!

Nick: You can let us know through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time.

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!