Discovering Letitia Baldrige, Handling Airport Pickups, Brushing Teeth at the Office, and More

Nick: Do you show up late for airport pickups? Do you floss your teeth in public? Do you talk about people behind their backs? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it! Hit me with it.

Nick: So for today's amuse-bouche, I want to talk about Letitia Baldrige. And her name has come up before on the show, and I kind of mention her in the same breath as, like, Emily Post, Judith Martin,, but I don't know if a lot of our listeners are familiar, like, with what she's really about. So I thought, like, let's talk about her. So, like, Leah, what do you know? What do you know about Tish?

Leah: I know literally only the things that you've told us about her.

Nick: So I've read a lot of her stuff, and I've seen her do tons of television interviews, but there's actually something a little enigmatic about her, and I can't quite place it. Like, I don't have a great sense of, like, who she really is. And it's really interesting because Emily Post, I mean, I get—I get her deal. Like, I get like how Emily Post probably lived and, like, I understand what it would be like to be at a dinner party with her. And Judith Martin? I mean, I think we get her deal. Like, what you see is what you get with Judy. But, like, Letitia? Yeah, there's just something about her. She's very cool, brilliant, great etiquette guru, but, yeah, there's just, like, something about her that I can't quite place. So let me tell you a little more about her background, and then you'll have a better sense of, like, who she is.

Nick: So she grew up in Omaha, and her father was a congressman in the '30s. And then she went to Vassar, and then did some grad work in Switzerland.

Leah: I literally knew you were gonna say Vassar.

Nick: [laughs] Well, anyone who's anyone went to Vassar. I mean, I didn't go to Vassar, but many, many people did. But yeah, so that gives you a sense of like, okay, that's the—that's the world she's operating in. And then she lands a job at the State Department. Like, right out of some grad work in Switzerland, she lands at the State Department. And all the bios of her actually make a point to say that, like, to get a job at the State Department at that time, which was like the '50s, you had to have secretarial skills as a woman. Like, you couldn't actually just be very talented and smart, like, you had to know how to, like, be a stenographer or whatever, like, filing skills were required in those days. So, like, she actually had to, like, learn those in order to get this job at the State Department. But she landed at the State Department, and then she landed in Paris as the social secretary for the ambassador, the US ambassador to France.

Nick: And so, like, all the bios kind of skip over, like, oh, that—that is not easy. You don't just show up in Paris because, like, the average person cannot have that.

Leah: Doesn't hurt to come from money and have that Vassar education. You know what I'm saying?

Nick: Yeah. Oh, I think she definitely got a leg up having a father who was a congressman.

Leah: A little leg up.

Nick: So and then she comes back from Paris, and then she works for the CIA in psychological warfare.

Leah: Whoo! What a life!

Nick: And that's all we know about that. Very brief mention, it's actually not in most of her bios. It only comes up a couple times on the interwebs. Not a lot about this. And she was asked about it in an interview, and the only thing that she said was quote, "In retrospect, what they were doing was not so different from public relations today."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I literally when you said "psychological warfare," I thought, "I see that."

Nick: Yeah. And I guess if you knew a lot about different cultures and what got to a culture and, like, what was sensitive, I guess that knowledge is useful for good or not good, right? I guess it's useful. It's useful information.

Leah: I love that idea that psychological warfare and public relations are hand in hand.

Nick: Yeah. And what is also interesting is that the CIA did keep an eye on her for the rest of her career. There are some things online where somebody did, like, FOIA requests, Freedom of Information Act requests to the CIA, and there were, like, some press clippings about her, like, oh, changing jobs. And it's sort of like, oh, that's interesting that you, like, were interested in Letitia Baldrige's job change. Like, was she always working for the CIA? Like, what's that about? So obviously impossible for us to know, but like, oh, isn't that an interesting detail?

Leah: I love that idea that she had been working for the CIA from the beginning.

Nick: Right? I mean, it is interesting, like, oh, this young woman in Paris, like, what a great agent. I mean, who would suspect?

Leah: Who would suspect?

Nick: So "after" she worked for the CIA, quote-unquote, because who knows if that ever ended, she then ended up in Rome, where she was working for the US ambassador to Italy. So now she's in Rome for a few years. Okay. I mean, how fabulous.

Leah: Okay, CIA.

Nick: Right? And so then she comes back to the United States, and then she becomes the PR director for Tiffany and Co. in New York. And she was their first female executive. And this was a time when, like, oh, women were not in those types of roles. I mean, she was one of the first female business people, you know, in the United States. I mean, she was definitely an early pioneer. And she was there when Breakfast at Tiffany's was being filmed. So as the PR director, I think she probably was, like, very involved. And she does talk about, like meeting Audrey Hepburn and, like, everybody else in the cast and how cool that was.

Leah: That's so cool. I like the idea that Breakfast at Tiffany's may have subliminal CIA messages in it. [laughs] I'm here to start rumors.

Nick: And at Tiffany, she tells a story of how she was single at the time, but she bought herself a full set of sterling silver flatware because she's like, "I'm single, but I like nice things, and I don't have to be married to have, like, nice flatware when I entertain friends." And so I think that philosophically is kind of interesting because she had that vibe, which is like, "I'm just gonna live my life the way I want to live it," which I really appreciate.

Leah: Go, Leticia!

Nick: Yeah, right? So then an old friend from, I guess Vassar, although they were slightly different years, called her for help in DC. And that was Jacqueline Kennedy.

Leah: Hmm.

Nick: So basically the idea was like, "Come to DC, be my chief of staff." And so Letitia Baldrige became Jacqueline Kennedy's chief of staff in the White House. And when you think about what White House dinners were like before the Kennedys arrived, these apparently were horrible. These were not fun events at all. One long big table in the State Dining Room. Apparently the flower urns were so enormous they were, like, oppressive, and it was hard to, like, talk around them. And guests weren't allowed to, like, have drinks, and there was no music until the President came downstairs. And so that could be like an hour. And so you're just like, standing around with no music, no drinks, waiting for the president. And, like, that's awkward.

Nick: And so when Jackie Kennedy and Leticia showed up, they're like, "We're gonna change all this." So they had round tables, eight or ten. There was music, there was liquor. And when you think about, like, the glamor of the Kennedy administration and these dinners and just all of that, like, a lot of that was Letitia Baldrige. She gives credit to Jackie Kennedy for a lot of this but, like, I think at the end of the day, I think this really has the Letitia Baldrige stamp on it. I mean, I think they were both peas in a pod. I mean, they both went to Vassar, but I think, Letitia, you know, with all of her time in Paris and I feel like the stamp on all this, I think Letitia Baldrige does not give herself enough credit for, like, what she really did to change entertaining in the United States.

Leah: What an incredible resume!

Nick: So then she actually was so sick of it, she left after two years because she was like, "This is exhausting." And I'm sure it is. I mean, to work for the White House, and to do state dinners and all this entertaining. I mean, it must have been totally exhausting. So she left. But then there was the assassination, and so then Letitia actually went back to DC to help Jacqueline Kennedy with all the funeral arrangements. So now she's back in DC. And then she, like, left that DC life and then started her own, you know, public relations firm. And then she became, like, an etiquette guru in the '70s. And that's really when she became, like, the doyenne of etiquette. And she landed on the cover of Timemagazine, and she had a column that was syndicated. And this was before Judith Martin because, like, Judith Martin's column didn't come out until the late '70s. And by then Letitia Baldrige was like the household name in the United States. And in the '70s, Letitia is the one who updated Amy Vanderbilt's etiquette book. And she added things like, "Oh, what do you do when a couple is unmarried, but you have to send them a wedding invitation?" And, like, that was pretty novel, you know? That was a new thing at that time.

Leah: She's like, "I'm adding in the PG-13."

Nick: Yeah, she was definitely more modern, and she definitely tried to bring etiquette up to speed in terms of business. A lot of her etiquette was about, like, business etiquette, and women in business and, like, who should reach for the door first, a man or a woman? And it's sort of like, well, whoever's the closest.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: But until Letitia was coming around, like, oh, no, no. The man should get the door.

Leah: I can only begin to imagine, like, you read these books that are from today where women are on these executive floors and there's no woman's bathroom.

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: And that's now. And then can you imagine in the '70s the work that she had to do to put in ...?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, well, that was a time when, like, oh, you couldn't get a mortgage without your husband signing it off.

Leah: Oh, yeah.

Nick: Yeah. And I think what separates her from, like, Judith Martin and Emily Post is that she really believed in the art of the bluff, which was like, just have confidence in all these social situations, and if you don't? Fake it. She was really big on faking it. And I don't necessarily think of Emily Post as, like, faking it ever. [laughs] Like, I feel like Emily Post was, like, really real. And, like Judith Martin, I feel like is also pretty real. Like, I don't get a lot of artifice from her. Whereas I think Letitia coming more from, like, this diplomatic place, this more, like, aristocracy place—I mean that in the best way, but, like, just coming ...

Leah: [laughs] I just love you being like, "I mean, aristocracy in the best way."

Nick: No, but in terms of that being worldly and sophisticated and charming and the best host, like, you want to go to a Letitia Baldrige dinner party. I mean, like, that's a party you want to go to. She sounds like a great time. But it's sort of like, is that artifice? Like, what is behind that? Like, you might never know. You know, maybe she's the best CIA agent ever.

Leah: I like that version of the story.

Nick: Right? And she does tell a great story about bluffing, which she was at home one Sunday night with her husband and, like, reading the paper. And she had forgotten that she invited two couples over for dinner. And they show up at 7:30, and instead of, like, saying, "Oh, so sorry, I totally blew it," she didn't want to admit that. So she tells her husband, "Get them drinks." She goes into the kitchen. Apparently, she has two frozen stews, which she defrosts. She had some lettuce salad-y thing from lunch that she's gonna throw away, but, like, oh, I could do something with that. She added three lettuce leaves because that's all she had. And then she served it to her guests, and she maintains that they didn't know. And it's kind of like, come on, of course they know. But what, you're gonna tell Letitia Baldrige, globally-recognized etiquette authority, that, like, did you serve us old food, and did you forget we were coming? Like, of course you're not gonna tell her that. But she maintains that nobody knew and she bluffed her way through it.

Leah: I always wear pajamas when people come to the door.

Nick: [laughs] Oh, that's also a good point. What, was she wearing her best, finest—like, was she—yeah. What was she wearing?

Leah: I walk through that door and I change. I never wear my outside clothes in the house.

Nick: Yeah. No, you're zero to Snuggie in 2.3 seconds.

Leah: [laughs] Yes.

Nick: But I think at the end of the day, her philosophy was really about nice guys finish first, and that having good manners really will get you ahead in life. And so I do like that attitude, which is like it actually is in your best interest. You'll get ahead, you'll make friends, you'll influence people, your life will be better at the end of the day if you have good manners.

Leah: Well, I really like that she had all these different kinds of things on her resume.

Nick: Yeah, definitely not linear at all, which I think the most interesting people are that.

Leah: Yeah, they have different places to pull from for their knowledge.

Nick: And I'll leave you with a good quote from her, which she gave to USA Today in, like, the 2000s. She says, "We ought to be vigilantes for kindness and consideration. If somebody is disrespecting somebody, we should step in, even at the risk of getting slugged over the head."

Leah: I like that.

Nick: Yeah. I mean—I mean, health and safety always trumps etiquette. [laughs] So do not put yourself in harm's way or you'll get slugged in the head. But the idea that we should always step in if we see an etiquette injustice in the world? Yes, I think this is very true.

Leah: Well, and sticking up for people. I like that idea.

Nick: Yeah. And that it is true, kindness and consideration. Yeah, we should be vigilantes.

Leah: We are kindness vigilantes, which is a fun juxtaposition there.

Nick: So that's Letitia Baldrige.

Leah: Lovely!

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep into the airport.

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about airport pickups.

Leah: Which is my life.

Nick: Is it now?

Leah: [laughs] I always pick people up at the airport.

Nick: So one of the wonderful things about living in New York City is that to ask someone to pick you up or drop you off at the airport is so insane, such a bonkers request, that that's not a thing. That's not a thing that happens in my world.

Leah: But I do miss it greatly when I go into New York because, oh! It's so nice after like that kind of a day to then see a friendly face.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. I mean, yes, it is nice. It is nice to be picked up. So what are some etiquette things to keep in mind since you're such an expert?

Leah: So from the person being picked up ...

Nick: Let's call them the passenger.

Leah: The passenger. That's a solid word. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: So I think on their end it's to clearly communicate where you are in the airport.

Nick: Well, isn't it better to actually have a predetermined meeting spot?

Leah: Yes, I would have a predetermined. But also then I would say, "Hey, I—" like, I'll know what terminal you're coming out of and what time, but then when you come out, especially if it's a big airport, I want to know what column you're standing next to.

Nick: Yes, give me a landmark. Yes. What is the door number?

Leah: Because, like, in LAX, you'll be like, "I'm at— you know, they'll have letters. So I want you to know I'm at terminal one, but I'm also at letter—so I'm heading there because it's so much chaos. And then if you're waiting and you know that person's coming, don't be, like, on your phone because it's so chaotic, I want you ready to go when I pull up.

Nick: And is it better for the passenger to be the one that's waiting slightly longer than the pick-up person?

Leah: Yeah, because the pick-up person is gonna have to circle. They can't park.

Nick: Yeah. The white zone is for loading and unloading only.

Leah: So I think you have the time, and then say—I think the perfect thing is to say, "Did you check a bag or not check a bag, so I can guesstimate how long."

Nick: Yeah, that's hard to judge sometimes. But yes, you want to kind of try and time it out.

Leah: And then, like, I recently had a friend pick me up—which was so lovely. And they waited in the cell phone lot.

Nick: Oh, sure.

Leah: And then they said, "Text me when you land." And I texted them when I landed, then I said, "Let me text you again when I've walked off the plane." And then they started driving.

Nick: And on my list, I want to have some conversation about do I actually want to talk to you on the ride home? Like, how much interaction ...

Leah: What? Isn't this your friend?

Nick: Well, yes. But, like, sometimes after you've been traveling. I mean, depends how long the flight was and how ...

Leah: Okay. Then you can not get a pick up. That is unbelievable.

Nick: [laughs] No, but I mean, sometimes you don't necessarily need to have this hyped-up, amped-up friend energy from your driver after a long flight. You know, sometimes you need a little ...

Leah: They're not your driver. They're your friend who's picking you up.

Nick: Well, but do you not understand where I'm coming from on this?

Leah: I do understand where you're coming from. And I a hundred percent disagree.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: If you don't want to, like, have friend time, then take a cab.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Because they're gonnA lose hours of their day doing this. So then for you to be like, "In advance, I would like to talk about how we're going to talk."

Nick: [laughs] Well, I don't necessarily need an advance agreement on this, but I think as the person doing the pickup, I think you want to just be sensitive to the rhythm and the energy level of your friend. You know, because sometimes somebody might be a little on the tired side, and it's sort of like you want to just be mindful of, like, where they're at. I guess that's my point.

Leah: Yeah, I'm not gonna bombard them, but I'm gonna be like, "How are you doing?" I don't want to feel like I can't speak at all because it would upset their delicate balance.

Nick: [laughs] That's not what I meant. But I mean, sometimes ...

Leah: That is—that's sort of what it sounded like you were saying.

Nick: Okay. [laughs]

Leah: You were like, "I would like to in advance set the temperature of the car. And ..."

Nick: Oh, is that possible? Can we do that?

Leah: No.

Nick: Sparkling or still?

Leah: I would say it's actually harder on the person driving in an airport.

Nick: Oh, absolutely. Yes. This is all for the benefit of the person that's being picked up. I mean, this is a true favor. There is no—there's no upside other than just being a good friend for the person doing the picking.

Leah: Yeah. So that's why—I mean, obviously you can read the room when you're in the car, but I don't think you need to have some kind of a ...

Nick: That's all I meant.

Leah: That's not what you meant.

Nick: No, it is!

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. I mean, I just—there's—you know, if you're flying for 20 hours and you're just, like, tired and you're just like, I just need a beat.

Leah: I think that's a rhythm people work out when they're driving.

Nick: That's true.

Leah: If you're good enough friends to pick somebody up, then you're good enough friends to know their rhythm. My main thing is like, if you have your friend coming and you told them you're gonna be there, then don't go back into the airport and dilly dally, because circling an airport is the worst.

Nick: Who's doing that? Who's dillying? Who's dallying?

Leah: I'm sure there's somebody who's dilly dallying. And I just want to say don't do that. Be ready at the curb that you said you were at.

Nick: Yeah, you gotta be ready. Yeah. Which I think is such an etiquette theme is sort of like, be ready, be ready to roll.

Leah: Ready to roll.

Nick: And are we assisting with luggage? Yes. We're gonna help with luggage, or is it—or is that too taxi-like?

Leah: It depends, I think, completely on the situation.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Like, at a huge airport where—I mean, in LAX, I'm not opening my door. There's people—unless I got a great spot to pull in, I'm almost in one of the lanes. You're gonna have to—I'm gonna pop the trunk, you're gonna throw it like it's an Olympic event. I'm gonna close the trunk, and then you're gonna jump, and I'm almost gonna be moving already. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah, that's kind of how that goes. [laughs]

Leah: Unless you need help with your bag.

Nick: Right.

Leah: And then I think if you need help with your bag, like, if it's a huge bag or, like, you know, you have trouble carrying your bag, I'm actually gonna park in short-term parking and I'm gonna meet you at the baggage claim.

Nick: Oh.

Leah: And then I'm gonna take it so then you don't have to worry about it.

Nick: Oh, that's very nice. Oh, that's really nice. Oh, you're a really good friend.

Leah: Well that's—I actually think that's just so much easier for everybody. Like, if you—if your bag is too much, just let me know in advance. I'll park.

Nick: And then I guess it's nice as the passenger to, like, bring something. How do we thank you? How do we thank you for this service? We just reciprocate the next time? Like, what's—what's a nice thing to do?

Leah: I don't—I'll just take a thank you.

Nick: Okay. Yeah. So definitely be appreciative. Don't just assume that they were obligated to do this for you, I guess.

Leah: Yeah. I think people want to—sometimes that's how you get to just spend time with people. People have busy schedules or whatever. You're like, "I'll pick you up and then we can talk. Unless you're Nick, and then I'll be allotted specific speaking times."

Nick: [laughs] Oh, great. Yeah, here's my calendar. We'll find an open spot for you. [laughs] So that's airport pickups.

Leah: Easy peasy! I guess you could offer gas.

Nick: Oh, yeah. Yeah, pay for some gas money. The price of the short-term parking.

Leah: Do we stop for snacks on the way back?

Nick: Bring some snacks from whatever destination you came from. That could be nice.

Leah: Uh, do you want some snacks from the Newark Airport?

Nick: Ooh! "Here's some sushi I bought eight hours ago."

Leah: "Here's some sushi I got from the Newark airport ..."

Nick: "I hear it's great."

Leah: " ... a half a day ago."

Nick: "Mmm!"

Leah: I can't wait to go back. It was so good.

Nick: Yeah. No, I'm gonna purposely try to book a flight through Newark just so I can experience this magic.

Leah: I actually recently had—a friend had a layover. I know you guys have mocked me relentlessly for this, but a friend had a layover in Newark, and I was like, "You got to get the sushi."

Nick: Mm-hmm?

Leah: "Let me tell you where it is."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: It's that good.

Nick: Yeah. No, I look forward to trying the omakase menu.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] おいしいですね.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "What's your take on brushing your teeth and/or flossing in office bathrooms? Personally, I couldn't care less, but a few weeks ago, my group chat went in on how nasty it is to see people in office bathrooms brushing their teeth. But flossing, which is more common, is not nasty. I personally am not an office tooth brusher, but I can't stop thinking about this. It haunts me! Is it nasty? Is it impolite? Is it because bathrooms are gross? But if it's because it's gross to do things in your mouth in a semi public bathroom, why is flossing not gross? Is it the implication that you didn't brush your teeth at home?"

Leah: I've never thought it was gross that people brush their teeth in an office bathroom.

Nick: Yeah, this is an interesting question. This is an interesting question.

Leah: I mean, don't leave your—you know how, like, there's residue from the toothpaste? Like, don't leave the sink dirty, but where else are you supposed to brush your teeth?

Nick: Yeah, I guess that's really what it is. Because, like, as an etiquette response, we'd be like, "Oh, well, don't brush your teeth at the kitchen in the office," right? We would say, like, "Oh, don't do it in the kitchen area, go to the bathroom." So we would—we would actually recommend people should go to the bathroom for this.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And, like, flossing? Like, oh, don't floss at your open desk situation. Like, go in private, which would be like the bathroom. Then the question is, like, oh, if I wanted to do this in the bathroom, am I supposed to go into a private stall now?

Leah: And do it into the toilet?

Nick: Right? So, like, is that what people want to have happen? And, like, that doesn't make sense.

Leah: It seems like they want them not brushing their teeth, but I think that they should just maybe get over it because this person has great dental hygiene, and we're going to call it nasty? They're doing it in the bathroom.

Nick: Yeah. And I mean, I brush my teeth throughout the day and I floss. Like, after lunch, I always brush my teeth and floss after lunch.

Leah: I just think that they're doing—they're already doing it in the allotted area to do bathroom things.

Nick: It is in the designated area.

Leah: And why would we be anti-teeth brushing?

Nick: I think we need more teeth brushing out there.

Leah: You know what's "nasty" quote-unquote? Is a root canal.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Speaking from experience, huh?

Leah: Speaking from very recent experience.

Nick: Yeah. That's not a fun time.

Leah: It's not a fun time. I just—I don't like the idea that we're tooth—toothbrush shaming people.

Nick: Yeah. And I think flossing and brushing teeth, I think it is in a similar world. It's in a similar world of dental hygiene.

Leah: I want to be clear, I don't think our letter-writer is toothbrush shaming. I think our letter-writer is trying to understand why these people are offended by it.

Nick: Yeah. So I think your friends are wrong.

Leah: I think—we think your friends are wrong.

Nick: Yeah. So you can let them know that. [laughs] So our next thing comes from a middle school class.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So a teacher has written us a bunch of questions from her students, and I've taken three of them. And what's wonderful is that yes, these are from middle schoolers, but oh, isn't it interesting how this is relevant for any age? Like, these are not limited to middle school age.

Leah: Nope. Same themes as adult age.

Nick: So the first one is quote, "My teacher just told the class incorrect information, and I know for a fact that they are wrong—I looked it up. Should I correct them? If so, how would I correct them?"

Leah: I mean, I feel like you just let them know by sending in this email through your teacher. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Oh, that's a valid point. Yeah, not subtle. Yeah. For me, it's all about timing. Timing is key. So I think we want to speak to them privately after class. I don't think we want to do this in front of the entire class.

Leah: Yes. And I also think that—because that could actually backfire on you.

Nick: And I think we want to do the correction in a way which is not like, "Oh, you're definitely wrong," but like, "Oh, I heard this, and this is my understanding," and to have, like, some conversation about it. Because maybe you misheard, or maybe there was more nuance, or maybe you're wrong. So, like, I think coming at it from like, oh, this is a conversation about this rather than, like, oh, you're wrong.

Leah: Yeah, I think that's great.

Nick: The next question from our middle schoolers is, "What should I do if other people I've been friends with for a while start talking behind my back about me? Do I confront them? Do I ignore them? What is the best thing to do?"

Leah: I mean, I think this is such a great question because this is gonna go on in one form or another throughout life.

Nick: Oh yeah, this doesn't end.

Leah: So, like, way to get these skill sets early.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Yeah, this is definitely not something you're gonna outgrow, for sure.

Leah: Nick and I were just talking before this, we started recording, about how I'm working on new skill sets, and it's so uncomfortable. But the more I do them, the less it will be uncomfortable.

Nick: Practice makes perfect. So for this, I think it comes down to what is the relationship we want with these people moving forward? Like, if these are actually friends and we want to maintain that relationship, well then yeah, let's address it head on. "Hey, I heard that you said this about me. I want to talk about it. Is this how you really feel?"

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And then we are just listening. We just want to hear what they have to say, because then based on what they say and how they say it and what they feel, then you can decide, oh, is this a relationship I want to maintain? Because yeah, if these are people who are like, "Oh, I don't respect you. Yeah, I said it. I don't respect you. I don't like you." Well, then yeah, maybe you don't want a relationship with these people.

Leah: And then I think we can also tell them how it made us feel once they confirm or deny whether or not this is true.

Nick: Yes. And then I think often there's gonna be an apology, or maybe this was a misunderstanding. We're gonna make some clarifications and we're gonna make a plan to move forward. You know, I think ultimately that's usually how this conversation should sort of go. But I think we don't want to talk about them behind their back. I don't think we want to just, like, pretend it never happened and make things awkward. So I think nipping it in the bud, that's kind of how I would do this.

Leah: And then Nick, at the beginning of it you said, "Are these people we want to continue a relationship with?" So you think if it's not somebody you want to continue a relationship with ...

Nick: Well, then they are classmates. I mean, I think what's interesting is as we get older, a new category of people in our lives sort of emerges, like the acquaintance. Like, in kindergarten, we didn't have acquaintances, right? You didn't have somebody in your kindergarten class who you were like, "Oh, have a good nap. Have a good day." And that was all—you know, it was like, "Oh, these are my friends," or "These are not my friends." It's very binary. But as we get older, there's a category of, like, acquaintances.

Nick: And so middle school I think is a little transitional, you know? Like, we're not best friends with everybody in the class. And yeah, maybe these are people that you'll be friendly with, cordial, "Nice to see you. Oh, did you get the homework from last night?" You know, we can have those conversations but, like, "Oh, I want to hang out with you on the weekends?" Yeah, maybe these aren't those people. So based on how they feel about you and how you feel about them, yeah, we move them in our theater.

Leah: Yeah. And then we also know this information for later.

Nick: Yes, we file it away.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yes. And our third question from our middle schoolers is quote, "Your friend invites you somewhere. You have no excuse, you just don't want to go. What should you do?"

Leah: Oh, this is—I think this is a great question because I don't want to do so many things.

Nick: [laughs] And as you get older, I think the true sign of it being an adult is when people cancel plans on you and you're thrilled. You're like, "Oh, I can't make it tonight. Oh, no worries!" And then you stay home and you're just like, so excited.

Leah: Oh, I think because doing stand up is so going out and so public and stuff, when I'm not doing stand up, I don't want to do anything.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And so I just say, "Thanks so much for the invite. I can't make it."

Nick: Yeah. I think that's all you have to do. You could say, like, "I'm in for the night, but thank you." So we always want to thank them for the invitation. But just, you know, "Unfortunately, I'm gonna just have a quiet night in." And that's legit. I feel like we should not be ashamed of saying, "Oh, we're just having a quiet night in alone."

Leah: Or an afternoon, depending.

Nick: Whatever time.

Leah: Whatever it is.

Nick: An afternoon in, a day in. "I'm planning on not leaving the house. Thank you so much." And now the key, though, is we don't want to continuously do that to the point where they get the hint that, like, oh, you never want to do anything. So you want to reciprocate future invitations, or you may want to accept future invitations if you actually want to hang out with this person at some point in the future. Because if you do decline too many invitations, you know, people do sometimes think, "Oh, they just don't want to be invited anymore."

Leah: Yeah, I think you could say, "Thank you so much. I can't do blankety blank, but hey, next Friday I'm going to this movie. Do you want to come?"

Nick: Bingo! Yeah. So reciprocating is always nice, for sure.

Leah: That seems like a nice thank you. No deflecting. Setting up plans for later.

Nick: And this is a great life skill too, for sure.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So thank you for these great questions.

Leah: Thank you so much!

Nick: And you out there, do you have any questions for us? Let us know! You can let us know through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm gonna let you go first.

Nick: Okay. Gladly. So I would like to vent.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So I was recently in a hotel. And the bellhop had all my luggage, and usually I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just take care of it," but, like, they really insisted in this hotel. Like, "Oh no, we must!" And so I'm in the elevator with the bellhop. And it's kind of a small elevator, and the bellhop is in front of me at the door because he got in after me. And he has all my luggage, and I don't have that much luggage but, like, there's a wheelie bag and there's, like, a thing on top of it.

Nick: And so we get to my floor and—ding!—and the door opens and he's like, "After you." And it's sort of like, I can't leave because you're in the way. And he was so insistent that the only polite thing to do was to make sure I got off the elevator first, I climbed over my luggage.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I actually had to, like, lift my leg like I was mounting a horse over my suitcase, climb over it, and then get out of the elevator. And this person thought, like, "Oh, this is—oh, I'm so polite. What good etiquette I have by making sure the guest leaves first." And it's sort of like, this was not the way to handle this at all.

Nick: And sometimes I think we confuse like, the "polite" thing, quote-unquote, with, like, oh, what is the actual polite thing, which is, like, usually the more practical thing. Like, let's not inconvenience me, I think trumps the idea of, like, oh, I should get off the elevator first. But it was actually so amazing as this was happening because I was like, oh, are we doing this?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Oh. Oh, we're doing this. Okay, glad I'm limber. Let's—let's do this. But I literally—I climbed over, and I did that thing where when you actually, like, climb over something and you kind of have a couple hops as you're regaining your balance. Like, that's what is happening with me in the elevator. [laughs]So yeah, that happened.

Leah: Oh, I wish I was in that elevator as, like, a little camera on the wall.

Nick: Oh, there was a camera. Oh, I should ask for the footage. I should call the hotel and be like, "Oh, I need some security footage." "Oh, what happened?" "An etiquette crime. An etiquette crime happened."

Leah: [laughs] An etiquette crime!

Nick: "We gotta pull the footage." [laughs]

Leah: I wish we could pull footage for etiquette crimes. That would be so funny.

Nick: That should be a category. Yes. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Oh, I am going to vent.

Nick: All right, let's hear it!

Leah: And I actually, in the moment, told this story on my Instagram, and many of our Were You Raised By Wolves? fans were like, "Can't wait to hear about this!" And somebody was like, "Is this a vent or repent?" And I was like, "Oh, no. I'm proud of how I handle myself."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Because I guess I could feel bad that I responded like an animal, but I really don't at all.

Nick: It is wonderful. So explain to the nice people what happened.

Leah: So I'm walking back from the gym and I have a tote bag. I'm carrying everything in a tote bag that is from an animal rescue, a dog rescue that I used to volunteer with.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: And a woman is standing—I don't realize there's a woman next to me. I have my earphones in, but I hear her and her voice is elevated. She's actually yelling at me. It's not like said as a joke. And she's like, "You don't like cats? You can't save cats?"

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: And this really just reminded me of how people talk to us on social media, or communicate with everybody where you're like, "I love oranges." And they're like, "You hate apples!" And I just—I wanted to get inside the brain of a person who would speak this way. I think when I turned around and engaged with her, I saw her face change. Like, I think she thought I was literally gonna go, "Oh, you're right, I love cats." Or ...

Nick: And just to clarify, you have a tote bag about dog rescuing. And this person sees it and interprets this as therefore you hate all animals that are not dogs.

Leah: Yes, that's how she's taking it.

Nick: Only dogs matter to you.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: That's how we interpret this tote bag.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay. Continue.

Leah: And I just ...

Nick: And you decided to engage with her.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay. Well, so that's on you.

Leah: No, I'm glad it was, because otherwise I would still be angry. I got it all out on her.

Nick: So what happened then?

Leah: Well, I sort of explained that my tote bag has nothing to do with her, and I don't understand where in her head me saying I support dogs is referencing cats in any way. I could like cats, I could not like cats. Also, she could get her own tote bag. I also said in the heat of the moment that I like my mother and I like whales and they're not on the tote bag. And how big does she want this tote bag to be?

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: And then ...

Nick: Although, what a great tote bag!

Leah: [laughs] It's just like ...

Nick: Whales. Your mom.

Leah: Thrillers. Ice cream. I mean, it just goes—the list.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: You're like, "This tote bag is the whole city." And then she meowed at me.

Nick: [laughs] That's the best.

Leah: That's really—and I'm saying this is like a woman. This is—this is just a person on their way to the supermarket who decided to take my bag and make it about them. And I just couldn't let it go.

Nick: And how was the meowing done?

Leah: She sort of did a meow like—it was sort of like she was backing away. I don't think she thought I was gonna engage with her, so as soon as I turned around and just—I leaned in, she sort of just kind of backed in. And I think she felt like she was just trying to be a cute cat, to be like, "Look, we're cute." And I was like, "You get I'm not commenting on cats at all."

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: She was like, "Meow." And I was like, "Okay. Wow!" I literally go, "Wow!"

Nick: Wow. Yeah. And for the record, you like cats.

Leah: I do like cats. I mean, the easiest way to have handled this would have been like, "I hate cats." I mean, I feel like that would have ...

Nick: That was the easiest way? No. No, the easiest way would have been to say, "Oh, I left my cat tote bag at home. That's for tomorrow. I alternate."

Leah: No I'm not—I would never say that. I would say, "This bag is made out of cats." I would say that.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're in for a penny, you're in for a pound.

Leah: I mean, but I didn't want it—because I do like cats.

Nick: Well, if you're explaining you're losing.

Leah: And I just wanted to get into this—I know, but I just wanted to be like, "What is happening in your brain? How did we get here?"

Nick: Yeah. How did we get here? Yeah.

Leah: And I got nothing on that. But I personally felt very satisfied walking away from this.

Nick: I feel like getting meowed at is satisfying.

Leah: It was. I was like, "Okay, this is what we're dealing with. This is where we're at."

Nick: Because you don't get meowed at and think, "Oh, clearly I'm the problem."

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Right? I think once you get meowed at, you're like, "Oh, no. This is not about me."

Leah: [laughs] It was—she meowed more than once.

Nick: She meowed more than once?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Nick: Okay. Okay.

Leah: I mean, I hope I get to see her again, to be honest.

Nick: Well I'm certainly gonna get you a cat tote bag for Christmas now.

Leah: No, I'm gonna get a tote bag that says "Everything But Cats." And I'm just gonna wear it ...

Nick: Okay. Making friends in Los Angeles, Leah.

Leah: [laughs] I will say that it just feels so much better to deal with it in the moment than to go back and be like, "Why would someone do that?" I asked why, I got a meow. And I think that—that she has been on social media too long and this is what has happened.

Nick: You got closure.

Leah: I got closure on that one.

Nick: Congratulations.

Leah: Thank you!

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned an entire histoire on Letitia Baldrige.

Nick: Right? Isn't she fascinating?

Leah: So fascinating!

Nick: And I learned that you don't like cats.

Leah: This is how rumors start!

Nick: Meow!

Leah: Can I actually say about meows really quickly, now that you just did that?

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: So you know, my—when I was born, my parents had a cat named Delicate Flower.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Who was one of the great loves of my life. And my parents would put Delicate Flower—and Delicate Flower was very large—would put Delicate Flower and I into a laundry basket and bring us out into the studio.

Nick: Oh, their pottery studio.

Leah: Yes. And so Delicate Flower and I would, like, hang out. So it is possible that I have been told that I meowed at the cat at a very young age. So I am pro cat.

Nick: Okay, so you are pro meowing.

Leah: I'm pro meowing to—in the proper place, which is to a cat.

Nick: Context is key.

Leah: Context is key here. You gotta meow at a cat. I get it.

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you Nick.

Nick: And thank you out there for listening. I'd send you a hand-written note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want you to tell some people about our show. Tell some friends, tell some family members.

Leah: Have them send in their gossip. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah! About you! [laughs] And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So I actually—I wrote a thank-you note to this person, and this person actually said, "Oh my goodness, I can't believe you sent me a note!" That's neither here nor there, but very here because it's on the podcast, but ...

Nick: Very here. Yes.

Leah: ... I was having a very hard couple of weeks, and random, I posted this book on my social media that I'm 1,008th in line for at the library.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: And my friend—this person that I know but not, like, know like I know you, was like, "Hey, I have extra Audible points. Let me just get you that book. Would you like that?" I mean, just out of nowhere. And it was just like the kindest, nicest, random gesture from somebody. And it really pulled me out of my funk.

Nick: Oh, isn't that nice?

Leah: Isn't that nice?

Nick: And for me, I want to read a nice review we just got, which is quote, "The world would be such a better place if everyone listened to this podcast. So smart, funny, informative and polite. Etiquette is sexy."

Leah: Wow!

Nick: Rowr! Etiquette is sexy, Leah!

Leah: This is—that's a whole other kind of meowing, by the way. That's—that's a different category.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. That's etiquette after dark. Get ready!

Leah: [laughs]