Crashing White House Weddings, Stealing Flowers From Neighbors, Charging Phones In Public, and More

Nick: Do you crash people's weddings? Do you steal people's flowers? Do you make up etiquette rules? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche. So for today's amuse bouche, I want to take you to 1971 Washington, DC.

Leah: Wow!

Nick: Can you picture it?

Leah: No. [laughs] I'm gonna picture Washington, DC now and then add some, I think, more sepia tones.

Nick: [laughs] Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we're there. And do you remember The Post, the movie by Steven Spielberg?

Leah: Yes!

Nick: So for anybody who hasn't seen it, it's basically about the Washington Post, the newspaper, and their decision to publish the Pentagon Papers, which was basically this revelation that the US government was not being entirely honest with the American people about the Vietnam War.

Nick: So it's 1971, and Richard Nixon is president, and his oldest daughter, Tricia, is about to get married in the Rose Garden. And that's a big deal. Like, a Rose Garden wedding? Like, that's a big deal. So journalists from all over the world are gonna be covering this, including, of course, the Washington Post. And so the Washington Post sends a list of the journalists, the names, to the White House saying, "These are the journalists we're sending. Give us the credentials." And the White House comes back to them and says, "Oh, one of these journalists is not allowed. We do not feel comfortable with them here at this wedding. So you can send anybody else, but not this person."

Nick: So Leah, who was that? Who was this journalist from the Washington Post that the Nixon White House was like, "Oh, not this person?"

Leah: I'm going to guess ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: ... because he has played many journalists in my memories ...

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: Tom Hanks.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Was in the movie. Yeah, was in the movie. No, it was—ready for it? Judith Martin.

Leah: No! [laughs]

Nick: Miss Manners.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So here's what happened: so before Judith Martin became Miss Manners, she was a writer and a journalist for the Washington Post, and she wrote for this section called "For and About Women." And Leah, did you know that only women went to parties and wore clothing and ate food in Washington, DC? That only women were interested in these things? Yes, it's true. Yes. So actually, that whole section was renamed the "Style" section in 1969, but when Judith Martin first started writing for the Post, like, it was just called "For and About Women." And sure, they did fluffy stories, but they actually, like, broke real news, too. And Miss Manners actually gave an interview once where she actually explained the type of journalism they did in the section where she talks about some party that some rich socialite was having in their estate in Virginia, and it was French themed. And they were gonna have basically Versailles recreated, I guess. [laughs] Like, they had big white tents, and they were gonna hang, like, impressionist paintings inside these tents and they were gonna be heated.

Nick: And the socialites wanted to say, like, "Oh, this isn't happening. We're not really having this party. No press, please. Like, we're just gonna keep this under the radar." And what the editor of this section of the Post did is she hired a helicopter to go up and take pictures of the party from above and, like, sent journalists into the woods nearby to, like, catch party guests to, like, find out what was happening inside.

Nick: So it was sort of like, oh, that's actually like real journalism. And Miss Manners talks about this time and the sexism of this time as something that was definitely happening, but was something that she tried to use to her advantage. So one of her beats was actually to cover the embassy parties.

Nick: And so what she would do, like, on a Friday night going off to the parties, she would stop by, like, the foreign desks and ask the editors and the journalists there, like, what happened in the world today? What should I ask some of these ambassadors about? And so she, like, knew what to ask all of these ambassadors and, like, foreign dignitaries about. And she would be at these parties, and she would identify herself as a Post reporter. And she was taking notes on a notepad and, like it's clear she's a reporter, but because she was a woman wearing a cocktail dress, it did not occur to a lot of people that, like, oh, she should be taken seriously and anything they say to her is going to end up in print the next day.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so she got great quotes from all sorts of people. And so she just sort of used this sexism to her advantage, which I think is clever and brilliant and I think is amazing.

Nick: So in 1968, one of the events that she was assigned to cover for the Postwas the marriage of Julie Nixon, who was Richard Nixon's youngest daughter. And she was gonna get married to David Eisenhower, who was the grandson of President Eisenhower.

Nick: And Richard Nixon had just been elected, and so this wedding was a big deal. Like, this wedding was like a major thing that was happening in the world. And so, of course, Washington Post was there and the Nixon transition team, because this happened in December right after the election, and so Nixon hadn't been sworn in yet, but Nixon's transition team was sort of managing press for this event. And they corralled all the press into, like, this area and told them, "You can't go in. We'll tell you what's happening, and you should write the stories as if you're there. But we're not actually gonna let you into the ballroom."

Leah: Mmm.

Nick: And Judith Martin is there, like, "Oh, that's not how journalists operate. Like, that's not gonna work for us." And so there's a couple different versions of the story about what happens next. One version is that she went to the bathroom with another Post reporter, and she hung out in the bathroom long enough for bridesmaids to come in. And she got to chatting with all these other bridesmaids, and then she just sort of left with the bridesmaids and then slipped into the party. And then Miss Manners says, quote, "We grabbed these nice young men who in the dim light thought we were college girls to dance with so we could get around the room. Then we put our heads down when we saw someone who would know who we were."

Leah: Sneaky and smart!

Nick: Very smart. Yes. And then apparently they were discovered and they had to flee. But Richard Nixon found out about this and was not happy with Judith Martin specifically or with the Washington Post. And some point to this episode as where the relationship between the Washington Post and the Nixon administration definitely, like, cemented the tension that would really last throughout the rest of the Nixon administration. But, like, the wedding of Julie Nixon, like, oh, this was definitely an example of, like, oh, this is happening.

Nick: And Judith Martin definitely spent the next few years trolling the Nixon family.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: She said this about Tricia Nixon, the other daughter, quote, "A 24-year-old woman dressed like an ice cream cone can give even neatness and cleanliness a bad name."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So, Judy! What are you doing, Judy? So that same Tricia then is the one who's gonna get married in 1971 in the Rose Garden. And because of that earlier wedding issue, and because Judith Martin was, like, like this in the press in the intervening years, the Nixon administration was like, "Oh, you can't come. We are not gonna give you credentials. Like, that's not a thing that's gonna happen. And so what the Washington Post did was basically said to the Nixon administration, "You can't tell us what to publish. And so if you're gonna dictate that, then the only person we're gonna send is gonna be Judith Martin. We're not gonna send anybody else."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so they only assigned Judith Martin to cover that wedding. And so she said, like, "I'll get as close as I can. I'll do what I can." And what she ended up doing was asking all the other journalists from around the world for their notes. "Give me your notes." And what she did is she put them all together and wrote a page one story for the Washington Post—which did not have a byline, by the way—and it actually was the best coverage of that event because it actually had everybody's perspective, everybody's notes. And so that was what happened with this wedding.

Nick: Now on the very same day that was the cover of the Washington Post, on the cover of the New York Times that same day was the Pentagon Papers being published by the Times. And so then this sets up the question for the Post, which is like, oh, do we follow suit? Should we also publish? And ultimately they did. And when you think about how they made a decision in the Judith Martin issue, of course, of course they were gonna go ahead and publish the Pentagon Papers because, like, they had to stand on this principle. But it just is so interesting that, like, oh, Judith Martin, who we think of, like, oh, she's the woman who tells you not to clink glasses and not to charge people admission for your wedding is also this same Judith Martin.

Leah: Yeah, that's wild!

Nick: Right? So she's very cool. She's very cool. So she's my dream dinner guest. Like, if I could have dinner with anybody in the world, like she is, hands down, no questions asked first choice.

Leah: You reminded me of—this is really off topic, but not exactly, which is how my brain works. V.I. Warshawski, which is the lead detective of a detective series that I love, was played by Kathleen Turner in one movie. I wish they'd done more. And she said to this young woman that she was, like, teaching how to do surveillance, she said, "Never underestimate a man's ability to underestimate a woman." [laughs]

Nick: Seriously. Yeah, absolutely. And so this is a great example of that. So I just wanted to share this fun story about Miss Manners, which I think not a lot of people know. And I think it maybe informs how we all feel about her, which is hopefully even warmer.

Leah: It really does. It really, really does.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Such a much fuller picture.

Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and repetitive.

Nick: Yeah, exactly.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about repetition. So in my travels and in all the letters I get from you all out there, I'm always looking for patterns, themes and the pith. What is the throughline? What are the commonalities? What are, like, the fundamental particles of bad etiquette? Like, what are the fermions and bosons of etiquette? And one of the things that sort of caught my eye is—what, little particle physics jokes? No?

Leah: No, I love it.

Nick: You want to talk about quarks and leptons?

Leah: I feel like that should be on something. I do want to talk about quarks.

Nick: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. Oh, sidebar. When I go to bed at night, the thing that I actually watch on YouTube to, like, calm my mind is actually, like, particle physics videos. Like, love it! Particle wave theory. Does the Higgs boson give things mass? Like, all of these things I'm totally obsessed with. It is so calming to watch particle physicists talk about particle physics. So I highly recommend it if you need a way to fall asleep.

Leah: I absolutely agree with that.

Nick: Yeah, it's really lovely.

Leah: Which is another thing we have in common.

Nick: I mean, this is great. So one of the bosons of etiquette, I think, is the idea of repetition. And what I mean by this—I guess let me give you some examples. So let's say I am having dinner at your house and you're like, "Oh, do you want seconds?" And I'm like, "Oh, no thank you. This is great but, like, I'm fine." And you're like, "No. No really, have seconds." And I'm like, "Oh, no, I'm great. But it was delicious." And you're like, "No, I really—you should have more." Like that kind of repetition.

Nick: Or we got a great question recently which was a woman buying prenatal vitamins, and the checkout person was like, "Oh, are you pregnant?" And she's like, "No." And she was like, "Oh, is it for someone else?" It's like, "No." It's like, "Oh, well who are they for?" It's like that kind of repetition. And there is something inherently rude about that type of repetition.

Leah: Obviously, with the buying the prenatal vitamins and asking if she was pregnant, it's rude even without the repetition.

Nick: Oh, yes, actually. [laughs]

Leah: Which we discussed. But I think point made.

Nick: Yes. Yes, you're not allowed to ask about pregnancy even once. Yes. Yes. But—but that type of, like, nagging almost.

Leah: Absolutely. I believe I brought this up at another point, but one of my favorite books, Gavin de Becker, is The Gift of Fear.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: He talks about people who don't listen to boundaries in, like, regular conversations where you're like, "Hey, would you like some pizza?" And you say, "No, thank you." And they keep being like, "Have pizza. Take a pizza."

Nick: Yes!

Leah: "You want a pizza?"

Nick: Interesting. Yes, there is a boundary issue. I guess it is about boundaries, too. Right. And not being mindful of somebody setting that boundary.

Leah: And then you're making them enforce it over and over and over again. And for some people who just want to be polite, after a while you feel like "I should just stop. I've had to say no five times. I don't want to say no again," you know?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess that's the tricky thing about etiquette. A lot of people, when they want to be polite, are pretty subtle at first and are hoping you'll pick up on it, which is like, "Oh no, I'm good. Like, thank you." And that's not strong enough for some people. Some people need it a little more explicit. And then I guess the problem is even when you make it explicit, when you keep pushing that boundary.

Leah: I had to recently make something so explicit that it was like even I was shocked.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Not even I was shocked because obviously I'm always shocked when I have to be explicit. I'm always like, "Oh my goodness! No thank you."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: But I mean, it came in like a low—like a low baritone.

Nick: Oh, you changed your register! Wow! Okay.

Leah: I had to just be like, direct eye contact and repeat it for the third time, you know?

Nick: Okay. And then did that work?

Leah: Oh, it stopped.

Nick: Okay. Yeah. So this idea of repetition, I guess I'm not sure what we do about it other than just to be mindful and kind of look out for it in the world, and being a little more careful when we see it so that we don't do it at least.

Leah: Yeah, I think sometimes, many times the people not paying attention to your boundaries are not nefarious, they just want to make sure that you're taken care of.

Nick: Yes, I think it is often coming from a good place.

Leah: That it's not always somebody who's like slowly trying to take over your life. But if somebody says no once, that's the answer.

Nick: Yes. No does mean no. Now just devil's advocate a little bit, there are situations in etiquette in the United States and around the world where there is a little bit of a dance, which is like, "Oh. No, you go first," or "No, I insist." So it's sort of not that, though. Like, that is a different category of no.

Leah: And I think most of us know what that is. We feel that in a situation.

Nick: Right.

Leah: Like, if you were at my house and I know you loved this—my deviled eggs, I know you love them.

Nick: [laughs] They're famous.

Leah: And I say "Do you want to take some home?" And you say, "Oh, I couldn't." I feel like if you were leaving and I said, "If you want to take some, I'm happy to give it to you," and then you go ...

Nick: "Oh, all right."

Leah: I feel like that could be in a gray area.

Nick: Right. And I guess that's what makes this a little tricky is that there's a lot of nuance involved.

Leah: I also think there's people that want to—and this sounds weird but, like, the difference is we're sitting at the table, I say, "Hey, would you like a deviled egg?" You say, "No, thank you." I say, "Come on, have one. Try one. Oh, you want one. I know you want one." That's—that's a whole other thing.

Nick: That's a whole other ballgame, yeah.

Leah: I shouldn't have to explain to you why I don't want one, why I'm not eating. It's not really your business.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Move on after the first one.

Nick: Right. Yeah. And so how do we know the difference?

Leah: Well, I think it is a good question. I think if somebody offers—if you are offered something, or you offer something and the person says, "No, thank you," that's it.

Nick: Yeah. Maybe that should just be the default setting. Unless you have a strong conviction that they don't really mean it and—or they're just sort of doing a polite thing.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I do want to move the example out of food, because I think food is a particularly fraught place because I do think it's loaded. A lot of people have different relationships with food, and some people just want to feed you and you're like, "I don't want—" so that's all very complicated. But an example of maybe where you could ask a second time is I've been in situations where somebody says, "Hey, do you need a ride?" We're at a party or something. And I don't want to inconvenience them. So I'll be like, "I'll be fine." And then later when they're leaving, they go, "Hey, I'm going. Happy to drop you off. You sure you didn't want a ride?"

Nick: Okay. Yeah, that feels nice and appropriate. Yeah. And that doesn't feel nagging.

Leah: Yeah. And I would say, "You know what? Thanks." Or "I'm good. I'm gonna grab a Lyft."

Nick: And in thinking about this, it feels like the nag quality is a problem. It also feels that repetition often has a flavor of substituting my judgment for yours.

Leah: Yes! Oh, nailed it, Nick.

Nick: Like, I don't want to accept your answer because I feel like you're not correct. And my judgment says that you actually should want to do this thing. Like, you should take the ride from me. You should do X, Y, Z. And so by asking again, it's sort of like, "Oh, no. I heard you but you're wrong, so I'm gonna ask again, but I'm not really asking. I'm kind of telling you."

Leah: I think that's such a great distinction because one, it bothers me when people keep asking if I want something, it's because they'll be like, "I know you love this," and I'll be like, "You actually don't know what I want. So I've let you know and we're stopping."

Nick: Okay. So I think maybe that's what it is. That's the pith.

Leah: That is the pith!

Nick: That is the etiquette fermion. That is the fundamental etiquette particle. It's that substituting your judgment for theirs.

Leah: As opposed to just being a nice host or hostess, and at the end of the evening you double check if anybody needed anything.

Nick: Right. Yeah, because actually that's the fundamental 180-degree opposite, which is being mindful of their happiness and their comfort and their feelings. Checking in with them. "Oh, are you sure you need a ride? I'm happy to drive you." Versus, like, "Oh, do you need a ride? Because I think that that's in your best interest, as opposed to you walking home because I don't think the neighborhood you live in is safe. So, like, you shouldn't be walking." Or something like that. Okay, so that's what it is. Okay. So I think that's what we should be mindful of.

Leah: Yes! Oh, I love how we got to that.

Nick: We got there.

Leah: Great point, Nick, because that's the feeling of it.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: Where you're like, "Oh, you're not listening to my choice on this."

Nick: Right.

Leah: As opposed to being a gracious host or hostess. Or friend.

Nick: So when thinking about how to respond when this happens to you, I guess there's a couple different approaches. If you want to follow the Miss Manners approach, she would say the weak smile. That's the way to go. And actually she uses this advice for a lot of things. But the weak smile, she describes it as quote, "Moving the mouth only slightly while the eyes simply stare." So you just kind of do a little smile but, like, you have a bit of dead eyes. And that kind of does send a signal, which is like, "I'm acknowledging what you said, but I'm not engaging."

Leah: I feel like dead eyes is always—after a few "Oh, my goodness. No, thank you. No, thank you."

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I don't think we want to start with dead eyes.

Leah: No, we start with a nice happy "No, thank you."

Nick: I feel like we want to end with dead eyes.

Leah: Yeah, we end with dead eyes.

Nick: Yeah. Upbeat. "Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much but, like, I'm good." And then. "Oh, no, thank you. I'm good. No, I'm good."

Leah: We could also throw in a—or let me see what you think on this. We could always throw it in the middle between dead eyes and a "Oh, you already asked me. No, thank you."

Nick: [laughs] Um, I like that. I mean, we need the tone. We need the tone because we don't want to be rude back.

Leah: No, but we're just saying I've already answered this.

Nick: We'll workshop it. I think you have to land it. If you land it, I'm good with that.

Leah: I think at a certain point, it's fair to let people know I'm tired of saying this.

Nick: Yeah, it comes down to tone. I guess you could say, like, "I feel like I've answered that." Yeah.

Leah: "I feel like I answered that" actually feels much harsher than "Oh, you already asked me. No, thank you."

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Well, I don't really have a middle ground.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I have very polite and then I have very stern and, like, serious. There's not a lot of middle for me. So that was—that was my middle. [laughs]

Leah: Can you do a "No, thank you" for me with a weak smile. Like, what that thank you sounds like?

Nick: Sure. So that would be a "Thank you." Oh, I can't even—I need context.

Leah: "Do you want a—oh, are you sure you didn't want another piece of pepperoni pizza?"

Nick: I'm good.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] It's a weird smile. Yeah, it's a weird smile. Yeah, I think we start there, though. We start there. Although when I do weak smile, I don't say anything back. It's just a weak smile because it's just easier to do a weak smile, which is just like "Hmm."

Leah: [laughs] That's how I do with dead eyes.

Nick: Oh, okay. I think my eyes are a little more expressive, but if somebody, like, cuts me in line at Starbucks and then, like, looks back, I would be like—I don't know.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] But yes, dead eyes. We don't want to start with that. But yeah, we can end there.

Leah: We end on dead eyes. Weak smile in the middle. We start polite.

Nick: And then you could also say things like, "Oh, thank you for your concern, but I'm good." Or, like, "Unfortunately, that's not possible. But, like, thank you so much." And then the tone just has to be increasingly sort of severe if it just doesn't land.

Leah: It's like a weather alert. You know what I mean? It's coming in. [laughs]It started out as a nice day, but if this keeps happening, it's gonna get real torrential around here.

Nick: Yeah. Then we look at that little radar. It's like, oh, the percentage of precipitation has gone up. Yeah. [laughs] So repetition, I think at the end of the day, it's just something I want everybody to be mindful of so that we can try not to do it. Or when we do it, it's in the right spirit. And if it happens to us, yeah, I think we just want to be mindful that it is happening to you, and that this is a relatively common etiquette crime.

Leah: And that you're actually absolutely allowed to say no multiple times and not feel guilty about it.

Nick: Yes. Sometimes you have to be repetitive with your no's. Yeah.

Leah: And some people, the nefarious side of this, do this as a tactic, and they're wearing you down because they know you want to be a polite person. So you can just keep saying no. Don't let them use kindness against you.

Nick: Yeah. And that actually is a great point. A lot of people do take advantage of people's politeness to get what they want, knowing that polite people will sometimes acquiesce. And you can be polite and say no at the same time. Totally compatible.

Leah: Totally compatible.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question—before I start, if you're driving, just pull over. If you're on a treadmill right now, I need you to power that down. And if you're sitting down, I actually need you to actually go on the floor now so that you don't fall over. Okay? I just want everybody to be safe. All right. Ready? Quote, "Recently, one of my neighbor's adult daughters was visiting me. I've lived across from this family for 23 years in our quiet, rural neighborhood, and have had a wonderful relationship with the entire family. The young woman just mentioned to me that her mother cut blooming tulips from my yard to take to church last weekend and hoped that I did not mind. Well, not only do I mind, but if she would have asked my permission, I would have politely told her no. She not only has her own gardens, but fresh flowers are available at our local grocery store.

Nick: "Her mother has been a good neighbor, and I'm reluctant to make a big deal out of this event. But to add fuel to the fire, I am blind, and my neighbor is well aware that I would never have known that the flowers were missing. Is it ethical to steal flowers from a neighbor to take to church? Another friend told me to suggest to my flower-stealing neighbor that she needed to do, quote, 'A few extra Hail Marys for stealing from a blind woman.' How can I tactfully confront my neighbor and let her know that my flowers are not available for her to cut without my consent?"

Leah: Should we pause?

Nick: [laughs] I think this is the most outrageous question we have ever received. I feel like this—this is—is this the most?

Leah: I feel like we've had a few that I've had to sit on the floor for that I can't think of right now. Because there are bells ringing in my head. Not like Christmas bells, but like alarm bells.

Nick: I mean, we have a blind neighbor and we cut her flowers from her yard hoping she would never know because she's blind.

Leah: And then our neighbor, our letter-writer is trying to be "I'm reluctant to make a big deal out of this event. Is it ethical to steal flowers from a neighbor to take to church?" It doesn't matter where they're taking the flowers.

Nick: [laughs] No, definitely destination does not matter.

Leah: The church does not want stolen flowers.

Nick: Not—no. Definitely not.

Leah: Sort of antithetical to church!

Nick: And I think to do something knowing that you won't get caught doesn't mean it's right.

Leah: No.

Nick: [laughs] Right? I mean, yeah, I'm—what is there to say? What is there to say?

Leah: I wrote down—I didn't know what to say.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I just wrote literally, "What?"

Nick: I got this on my phone, and I was on the subway. And I gasped so loud that everybody in that car from end to end looked at me. It was the loudest gasp you've ever heard. I was just like, "What is happening? What is happening here?" And of course, like so many of our letter-writers, they are being so nice about this.

Leah: And really this is really what it is. It's always our letter-writers who are like, "Is it—I don't want to make a big deal. Is this rude?"

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: It's stealing your flowers!

Nick: Stealing your flowers.

Leah: Assuming you won't notice.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And they have their own flowers.

Nick: And they have their own flowers.

Leah: Not that if they didn't have their own flowers they should do it. You ask people, "Hey, may I cut some flowers for church?" "No." Done.

Nick: Yeah. [laughs] So I don't know. I mean, I just don't—what do we do with this? So I guess I think we should say something to our neighbor.

Leah: Can I really quick—when you say, "What do we do about this?" This is the kind of place where I would love to go to this neighbor's house and knock on the door and be like, "Hey, this is Nick and Leah. And we heard that you've been cutting your neighbor's flowers because you think it's okay because she quote, 'Won't know.' And we would just love to discuss how you mentally got to that decision as something that's okay."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: "We would love to learn about how your mind works."

Nick: "Walk us through this." Yeah.

Leah: "Walk us through this."

Nick: "Take us through that journey." Yeah. So I guess the question, though, is how can I tactfully confront my neighbor and let her know that this was not cool? That's the question we've been asked. And so I feel like polite-yet-direct, I think that's the thing here. "Hey Lisa, I heard you cut some of my tulips. I would appreciate you asking first before you do that in the future."

Leah: I mean, that is too good for them. Not our letter-writer, that's too good for the neighbors. But I mean, that's how you be a polite person who takes the high road.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: "Hey, heard you cut some of my flowers. I'd appreciate you asking in the future. Also, I'm gonna say no."

Nick: Actually, I don't think I would even include the "No" part in that.

Leah: No, I'm just saying that to be sassy.

Nick: And I would wait for you to ask me. [laughs] Yeah. Like, I get the instinct to want to be a little sassy. Yeah. I mean, that's usually my default setting, but we have to try our best not to. I do also think, separately, we do need to enlist the help of a different neighbor to keep an eye on your yard, because it is possible that they're gonna try to do this again. And it would be nice to know if this has happened.

Leah: Oh, I immediately was thinking that we should electrify our yard.

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: With, like, a perimeter.

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: Like, you know those things they put underground for dogs that keeps them—I don't know if we could change that into, like, a people walk onto our yard and they get electrified. I think that's completely fair.

Nick: Or can we do that thing that banks have where they have, like, little ink things inside of money that will explode if you take the money? So can we put some of those ink things inside the flowers so that if you cut them they'll, like, explode?

Leah: I think you could write a list of all the things that your neighbor shouldn't take because she quote, "Thinks you wouldn't notice." And you could just be like, "Hey, here are all the things that you can't take from me."

Nick: Yeah. How about take advantage? [laughs]

Leah: [laughs] Yeah. I just can't believe this neighbor.

Nick: No, I mean, it's so—it's so gross. It's so gross. Like, why would you do this? Why would you—like, what part of you thinks this is okay? Like, why are you broken?

Leah: [laughs] Why are you broken?

Nick: Why are you broken? No, really. Like, because it's like, clearly you know your neighbor can't see, you know your neighbor wouldn't notice and you're like, "That's cool. And we're gonna, like, just cut flowers out of her yard."

Leah: I would have trouble not losing my temper a little bit if I were our letter-writer.

Nick: So I think that if you wanted to be a little cheeky but in the zone of etiquette, I think you could make a joke. Which she actually hints about in her letter, which is like, "Hey, Lisa. I would appreciate if you would just, like, give me a heads up before you cut any of my flowers. And if you wanted to, you could say a couple extra Hail Marys for stealing from a blind woman." And you could kind of say that in, like, a jokey way, but it's sort of like you also make your point. So I think if you could land that, I think there is a way to sort of make that joke, which is a joke but not a joke.

Leah: I think you could also—let's trot this out.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: Say, "Hey, I heard you took my flowers without permission because you thought I wouldn't notice."

Nick: Yeah?

Leah: "And I've appreciated—" how long have they been neighbors?

Nick: 23 years.

Leah: "I appreciate that we've been—because we've been such great neighbors for 23 years, it sort of shocked me because it makes me feel taken advantage of."

Nick: Ooh, I like where we're going with this.

Leah: Because that's what it is. You've had a relationship with these people, and they did something very dishonest and underhanded.

Nick: Yeah. And it should hurt your feelings. Yeah. And to say that I think is also fair. Like, "It hurt my feelings to hear that you cut flowers hoping I wouldn't notice."

Leah: And then just leave it to them to try to—whatever they say next.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then you can see how you feel about their response.

Nick: And hopefully there's gonna be an apology there.

Leah: A deep apology, and they should replant your plants.

Nick: Oh, yes. How do they want to make it up to you? I didn't even think about that part of the equation. But yes, I mean, ideally, how this resolves is, "This hurt my feelings and I hope it doesn't happen again." "Oh, my goodness. I'm so sorry." Some very heartfelt apology. And then, "How do I make it up to you? I will do X, Y, Z, and we'll make sure we plant more tulips for you for next year as well." And, like, "Oh, here are all these bulbs." Something in that zone? Yeah.

Leah: And if all that falls short, send us the address.

Nick: I mean, I think you could still send us the address because I would still like to show up.

Leah: I have some airline miles.

Nick: Oh, I'll pay cash for this.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: This is worth cold, hard cash. Absolutely. Yeah. So our next question is quote, "I have a question about something a coworker told me years ago. When he and his girlfriend went out to eat, she would stop eating when he finished his meal. He asked her about it, and she said that she'd been told that it was rude for a woman to keep eating after her partner had finished. Is this a thing?"

Leah: I was wondering if the person who told her that was from the 1600s.

Nick: [laughs] Yes. Was it at a ren faire? Yeah, I mean ...

Leah: What?

Nick: What? I've not heard of this particular etiquette rule. I did check my books. I did check my resources to see if Emily or Amy or Judy may have covered this topic. No one has written about this rule, so I think I'm pretty comfortable saying, like, no. No, it's not a thing.

Leah: I mean, I'm absolutely comfortable saying it's not a thing. Whether it was a thing before women were allowed to own property, I don't know.

Nick: Sure. Okay. I mean, it is not not a thing that women were treated differently throughout the ages. And certainly during meal time, this was an example of when women were treated differently. I'm not quite sure where this person in this story got this rule.

Leah: I would like to meet this coworker. I just—who's walking around saying that this is the thing? Do they know they can get a credit card in their own name now?

Nick: [laughs] Right.

Leah: Not that women don't continue to be treated differently in culture. I mean ...

Nick: Yeah, for sure.

Leah: But we're eating. We are eating now.

Nick: And there's definitely etiquette rules that are slightly different when it comes to men and women. And, you know, whether or not these are arcane or whether or not these are still relevant, you know, like women are still technically allowed to wear hats in a restaurant, you know, during the day kind of thing where men should remove their hats. But this feels like a different category.

Leah: This is a different category.

Nick: Definitely a different category. Also, this is made up.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so I think why this actually bothers me is that there are people going around making up etiquette rules, and they make them seem like real things and, like, they're not real things. And so I feel like we should not be making up etiquette rules.

Leah: I would love the idea—alternative take, that our—that our person who said this just really hated whatever meal they were eating, so they just, like, made it up on the spot to get out of it.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And then now people are handing it down as like an idea they heard. But really this person just makes up things all the time, and just says that it's an etiquette rule because they don't want to do them.

Nick: Oh! I mean, that's a good origin story. There was a woman who had a horrible meal on a date and was like, "I don't want to eat this. Like, he can't cook." And so she just, like, made up that rule, and then she passed this down through the generations.

Leah: [laughs] Yeah.

Nick: Right. I mean, this is actually how some etiquette rules do start. That's true. Yeah. I mean, if Queen Victoria did this, this would be the rule.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah, so long story short, it's not a thing. It's not a thing.

Leah: I just see a fun stamp that we have coming down on, like, a hashtag. "Not a thing."

Nick: Yes, this is not a thing.

Leah: Decided.

Nick: This is it. Yes. We have ruled, not a thing. So do you have questions for us about things or not things? Let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm gonna vent.

Nick: All right. What's happened?

Leah: Well, this is a fun one because I wasn't the only person there.

Nick: All right. You have corroborators.

Leah: Well, the other person got so angry in the moment that I actually didn't walk away with any anger because they ...

Nick: Oh, they kind of took it with them.

Leah: They sort of just really—which has never happened to me before. And I was like, oh, that's sort of a therapeutic.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Just have a third person on the scene who goes further than you would ever go.

Nick: So what happened?

Leah: So if you visualize I'm going up a large—like, a bigger street, and then I'm turning onto a perpendicular street.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And there was a light.

Nick: All right.

Leah: So I turn and there's a broken down car in my lane. And this—I'm turning onto a very small, tight street.

Nick: Okay. Can you get around this car or no?

Leah: I can't get around the car.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: So the person coming down on the other side brakes early—they're in a truck—so I can go into their lane.

Nick: Nice.

Leah: Very nice. And the light is red on their end because I just turned, so they wouldn't be able to go anyway because there's a light.

Nick: So we're good.

Leah: So we're good.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I start to turn. The car behind the truck honks like "I don't have time for this," pulls around them.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Skirts around the broken car, and then just parks directly where I was pulling in.

Nick: [laughs] Okay, so now you're blocked.

Leah: I'm blocked, but the man who was driving the pickup truck who was trying to do me a good Samaritan, "You go ahead, I see that you're stuck ..."

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: ... got so angry at this car in front of him that didn't notice that he was trying to be polite and has now blocked the road for everybody, because nobody can turn now at the light because I can't move, so they're stuck. And then they can't turn out of the road because the light. So they've done this, and he starts to get out of the car like he's gonna fight this person.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: But he stops himself.

Nick: Okay. So he retreats.

Leah: He retreats, but he's so mad that somebody has blocked up traffic and he was just trying to do something nice. I was gonna go get mad, and then I saw him get so mad and then him be like, "I can't do this right here. I'm not gonna start a fight in the middle of the road." Then I then was able to not get mad and just sit there until the light changed, and they all went and then I went around. But if he had not—because everybody was honking, it was all this person's fault. They didn't care at all. But it was so therapeutic to have somebody be like, "I'm gonna handle this." And you're like, "Wow!" [laughs]

Nick: So it's almost sort of like a paper towel. Like, he absorbed all of the bad etiquette liquid that was on the scene.

Leah: By not taking the high road whatsoever. By doing what we all want to do, which is like, are you out of your mind?

Nick: Oh, so he got to be your id.

Leah: [laughs] Yes! Yes!

Nick: I mean, how liberating.

Leah: It was so exciting.

Nick: And for me, I would also like to vent. So I was at the doctor's office recently having my annual checkup. And I'm waiting, and in the waiting room there are people in chairs and there is a water cooler. How nice! What a lovely waiting room. And so someone comes in and goes up to the water cooler but doesn't get water. No, no. Leah, what do you think they did?

Leah: Doesn't get water?

Nick: Nope. Didn't get water from the water cooler.

Leah: Are they gonna wash their hands in the water cooler?

Nick: [laughs] No. Although that would be amazing. No, what they did is they unplugged it.

Leah: What?

Nick: And then they plugged in their phone to charge it.

Leah: No, no, no, no, no.

Nick: And you're like, okay, bold move. Bold move. But then that wasn't the end of it. Then they went back to their seat and the phone rang.

Leah: No, no, no!

Nick: And loud, very loud ring. And the person said as we're all looking at them, which is like, "Are you—are you gonna get that? Are you gonna get your phone? The person said, "Oh, don't worry. It'll go to voicemail."

Leah: What?

Nick: [laughs] Which if you've ever actually waited for the iPhone to pick up for voicemail, that's actually a very long time.

Leah: It's like 10 years.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, it actually is quite a while before the voicemail actually kicks in. And so, like, okay, that happened. And then the phone actually pings when the voicemail actually lands. Like, "Oh, you have a voicemail." And then they go up to the phone because I guess they want to listen to their voicemail, and instead of, like, turning it on vibrate or mute or something else, they didn't, and then the phone rings again. And at that point, the staff is just like, "Uh, you need to not charge your phone there." But what is happening? What is happening?

Leah: What is happening? I can't—I was shocked at—if the thing had ended on unplug the water cooler, I would have been shocked.

Nick: Right. Yeah, right there it's like, I think the general rule is we do not unplug other people's appliances. I think actually, we don't unplug anything in someone else's space. Right? Is that the rule?

Leah: That's the rule.

Nick: Like, we're at a friend's house and we want to plug in our phone, like, we ask first before we unplug something, or we ask if we can plug into their charger. I feel like anytime we're gonna connect with somebody else's space, we ask first, right?

Leah: Yes! And then the phone rings.

Nick: And then the phone rings!

Leah: Another level. And then we hear the voicemail. And then again! Unbelievable!

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I just imagined somebody in the waiting room just cracking, walking over to the cell phone, pulling it out of the charger and dropping it in the water cooler.

Nick: Oh, wouldn't that be poetic?

Leah: [laughs] Solved it.

Nick: [laughs] Check your voicemail now.

Leah: I know. It's gonna go in a lot faster now. So ... [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Well, I learned this amazing histoire of Judith Martin.

Nick: Isn't it amazing? She's amazing!

Leah: I mean, deeply interesting. What a chunk of history. Thank you so much, Nick.

Nick: And I learned that you need to subcontract all of your etiquette anger.

Leah: Yes. [laughs]

Nick: This is key. You need third parties involved.

Leah: To just really react to, like, the highest degree. And then you're like, "Oh, I feel fine now."

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, do you follow us on the social medias and get our newsletter? Because we got some fun stuff cooking, and you're gonna find out about it if you subscribe. So please follow us on all the socials and get our newsletter so that you don't have etiquette FOMO.

Leah: I mean, etiquette FOMO is a big thing.

Nick: That's the worst kind of FOMO. So please follow us, and we'll see you next time

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So I believe that I've actually done a Cordials of Kindness shout out to Christopher Thomas and Michael previously, but—who are in our Raised by Wolves family and live in Los Angeles and have been so supportive of my move. But recently, Chris showed up at a comedy show wearing a shirt that he made in support of Raised by Wolves, and it was an FSR t-shirt. And it delighted me to my core so much that I was speechless upon arrival and so thrilled. And thank you so much. That's so cool!

Nick: I saw this great photo, and I am actually tickled that we have reached the point, Leah, that there is now bootleg merchandise.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: There is unauthorized merchandise in the world inspired by our show. I mean, you know you've made it when your stuff is on Canal Street.

Leah: I love it!

Nick: So ...

Leah: Thank you, Chris.

Nick: But you will be hearing from our legal team.

Leah: He actually said—Chris said that to me. He's like, "I feel like Nick's gonna send me a cease and desist." [laughs]

Nick: No, totally delighted. It was great. And for me, I want to read a nice email we just got, which is quote, "I can't tell you how many times I've been in an uncomfortable situation where, like Jiminy Cricket, Nick's voice descends from the ether, and I hear him saying that direct, polite communication is the best way to handle this situation. And he's right. It always works. I feel like it may be extreme to say it's been life changing, but I think it kind of has been. So thank you both."

Leah: Wow!

Nick: Isn't that nice?

Leah: What a nice letter. Yes.

Nick: And I love a top hat. I mean, I'll take a Jiminy Cricket reference, absolutely.

Leah: Absolutely.

Nick: Absolutely. So this really makes my day. I'm glad that my voice can be in your head. I mean, I feel like it's in my head all the time. So I don't know how it is for you, but I'm delighted that it's useful.

Leah: So great.

Nick: So thank you.