Cordially Invited: William Hanson

Nick: Hey everybody, it's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And I'm Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And today we have cordially invited William Hanson to join us.

Leah: So excited!

Nick: William Hanson is one of Britain's most trusted authorities on etiquette, and his résumé is quite long. Highlights include that he's the director of The English Manner, the UK's leading etiquette training institute. He's the cohost of the amazing podcast Help I Sexted My Boss. He's the author of four books, and his fifth book, Just Good Manners, is coming out this fall, but you can preorder it right now. William, thank you for joining us!

William Hanson: Thank you so much for having me, both of you.

Leah: We're so thrilled you came out. It's so fun.

Nick: So William, first of all, tell us about the new book, Just Good Manners.

William Hanson: Well, it's a book about British manners, and modern British manners as well, because really, I mean, as I'm sure you and your listeners know, there haven't—hasn't really been, in my opinion, a contemporary British book. Obviously, the Emily Post Institute sort of redid etiquette last year, and that was great. And it included lots of modern topics as well as some of the old stuff. But certainly in Britain there hasn't really been anything, and as we all know, etiquette evolves. It should reflect the society that we live in, not some sort of idealistic Bridgerton, Downton-esque society. And so I'm very excited that the lovely people at Century Penguin Random House have allowed me to put forth my opinion and sort of arbitrate between the old and the new in Just Good Manners.

Nick: And I guess the difference between US and UK, I mean, there is a difference. So I mean, how are we doing, I guess?

William Hanson: Oh, you're doing marvelously. You're—I mean, I wouldn't—I wouldn't have agreed to come on this podcast.

Nick: [laughs] No, I mean "we" as the United States.

William Hanson: Oh, "we." Oh, I see.

Nick: I'm doing fine.

William Hanson: Oh!

Nick: No problem here, personally.

Leah: But we do love compliments. We are here for compliments.

William Hanson: Okay.

Nick: [laughs]

William Hanson: Yeah, the United States as a whole? Well, ups and downs, really. Always room for improvement. But equally, I don't think, you know, Britain—Britain is not perfect, not for one minute saying we're perfect.

Nick: Yeah. No, I've seen Love Island. No, I'm familiar.

Leah: I've seen Naked Attraction. So ... [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

William Hanson: Yes. Because you—they started showing that in America, didn't they, quite recently?

Nick: Oh, yeah.

Leah: On Max. Yes. Nick sent it to me and then refused to watch it, and I had to watch the whole six seasons alone.

William Hanson: [laughs] So are they showing you our series?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Oh, yes.

William Hanson: Oh, right. Okay.

Nick: Yeah, so we're familiar with how things can go down in the UK.

William Hanson: Mm-hmm. Fine. Yes.

Leah: From All Creatures Great and Small to Naked Attraction. We've ...

William Hanson: You've got it all. I should just say I am fully clothed on the book cover.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: There is no—you don't pull the dust jacket off at a certain point, and more and more of my body is revealed. So people don't need to worry about that. But yes, I mean, Britain and America, there are so many similarities, but also so many sort of differences. I mean, I think you're much more direct generally in America than we are in Britain. We—you can just sort of say, "Please shut the door," whereas we would have to say an entire paragraph in order to get someone to shut the door. So I think we probably are, maybe due to our sort of history and the diplomatic community going back hundreds of years, are slightly softer in our approach than a more direct America, or indeed other countries like the Netherlands.

Nick: Oh, well, they're famous for it.

William Hanson: Mmm.

Nick: Yes. [laughs]

William Hanson: I don't want to say the word "rude."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: They definitely are more direct than we are in the United States, for sure.

William Hanson: Yes. I have a lot of Dutch colleagues, and I tease them a lot as they tease me. I can remember—this is a niche story I probably can't share anywhere else, but on this podcast I feel I can. I was very lucky to be working in Oman in the Middle East during Covid lockdown three in Britain with my Dutch colleague. And we were going to be stationed over there for six or seven weeks, so we both thought we should write to our respective ambassadors too, A) because of Covid, and also we were there working with the Royal Court, that we would sort of just let them know that we're in the country for a long period of time.

William Hanson: And it so happened that our emails crossed, and I read his and it sort of started with "Dear Letitia," and it was so informal. "Thanks, Jean-Paul." And mine was "Your Excellency," and ended with, "I have the honor to remain your most humble and obedient servant." And I was sort of basically on the floor as I wrote the email, because that's sort of one of the wonderful things about Britain is that we sort of pay—rightly or wrongly, we pay so much attention to titles and status and rank. And although we are becoming a lot more—much more of a meritocracy, I think you're probably a bit better over on your side of the pond at that.

Nick: Interesting! I do feel as an American, whenever I'm in the UK, I do feel like I have to be on my best behavior at all times, and so I don't always love having to be on my best behavior. [laughs]

William Hanson: You were beautifully behaved when we had breakfast, if we can say that.

Nick: Well, thank you for bringing that up because I have been haunted by our breakfast.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: So William and I had breakfast when I was in London last year—delightful breakfast! And of course, when you are dining with—what is it?—the UK's most trusted authority on etiquette, and so obviously this makes you a little nervous when you are having a meal with this person. And I actually thought I might do two things. One, I thought, oh, I'm gonna actually go out of my way to break every etiquette rule to see how far I can get, and to see would he notice? But then I thought, no, I'm gonna—I'm gonna do my best. But then I ordered an omelet, and this omelet had more Gruyere than any omelet has ever had. And the stringiness of this omelet was unbelievable, and the entire time we're having breakfast, I'm like, this cheese is not breaking. What am I supposed to do? And I'm haunted that you saw it, you clocked it, you've been talking about it with others.

William Hanson: I can remember the omelet. That is tattooed on my mind.

Nick: Oh, no! Okay.

William Hanson: But I remember it for different reasons to you, I do not—I did not pick up on the Gruyere, or if I did, it is gone. It's very quickly gone out of my mind. What I picked up on is that you sort of correctly, in French etiquette, picked up your fork only to eat it, whereas in British etiquette we basically eat everything with a knife and fork.

Nick: Wait, what?

William Hanson: Yeah. So we would eat an omelet with a knife and a fork.

Nick: Omelets?

William Hanson: Yes. Now you don't need to. A classically French omelet like you got served where we were, you can just, well, more or less use with a fork. But of course, we pile it with cheese and difficult things, so thus a knife might have been helpful.

Nick: Oh, so you clocked my continental approach?

William Hanson: Yes. And I can't for the life of me remember what I—what I ordered myself.

Nick: You also had an omelet, but it didn't have cheese in it.

William Hanson: Did I?

Nick: Yes.

William Hanson: Ah, yes. Okay, yes. But I think I copied you and used a fork.

Nick: And I clocked it, and I thought, "He's feral."

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

William Hanson: But I feel Leah would have done a better job at sort of breaking all the etiquette rules deliberately to wind me up. I think if you were there Leah, you would have—you would have done that. I think, Nick, I'm getting the vibe that you are more of the etiquette SWAT.

Leah: Yeah, I think that's—are you getting the vibe? [laughs]

William Hanson: Well, I know. I've listened.

Leah: I would roll my omelet up into a cone and eat it with my hands.

William Hanson: Well, there's always that. Yeah. But no, it was a lovely—it was a lovely breakfast.

Nick: It was, but it was terrifying. So point being, I do find when I'm in London it's like, oh, I definitely have to, like, not be American right now. I have to do my best.

William Hanson: And how do you both find—I'm always, particularly as I'm sort of just about to finish the book, how do you—and you can be honest, I've heard all sorts—how do you perceive the Brits and their manners—I know we're not all like Downton Abbey—the Brits and their manners today?

Leah: I mean, so much of my—I feel so weird saying this, but so much of my perceived ideas of the Brits are because, you know, my parents didn't let me watch television growing up, but if I was a good girl and I took a bath once a week—[laughs] I was like 15 or 16—I was allowed to watch Upstairs, Downstairs on PBS. And then my parents read a lot of Lord Peter Wimsey, you know, so I have all of these—which I know is not your current life, but these exist deeply in my brainpan. So in my mind, everyone's going around with tea and egg cups and just being very polite.

William Hanson: Okay, nice. Lovely. Nick?

Nick: I guess I feel like there's definitely a more proper way to do things, and there's sort of narrower parameters of what is considered proper in the UK. Whereas I feel like in the United States, there's just a wider range of, like, oh, how we're using forks, where the napkin's going, what the place setting is. Like, something can be considered formal and fancy, and that can mean a lot of different things. Whereas I think in the UK, like, oh, I think those parameters, it's just a little narrower. Which on some level makes it easier because it's nice to know, like, okay, the bread plate, it's aligned with the bottom of the table in the UK and that's what it is.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: In the United States, I mean, thankfully there is a bread plate.

Leah: I was gonna say, is there a bread plate?

Nick: [laughs] Hopefully it's on the left. But well, you know, wherever it is we'll make it work. We'll—we'll get the Hawaiian roll somewhere. So I feel like—yeah, I feel like there's just, like, a little more narrow parameters of what quote-unquote "good etiquette" is. And also, I guess, do you have more of that middle, like, not super fancy, not super casual, that middleness of etiquette, you know, that sort of like formal-ish?

William Hanson: Yes. Yes, and actually, my dear friend and colleague Joe Bryant, who used to work for Debrett's for many, many years and wrote probably all of the Debrett's books that you sort of may have or have seen in recent memory, she will often wind me up and tease me that she is much more, in your words, sort of the middle of etiquette rather than the sort of the super casual or the super formal.

William Hanson: In British etiquette traditionally, we don't put the pudding—as we would call it—dessert cutlery above the setting. Everything would go down the left and right hand side of the plate.

Nick: Right.

William Hanson: And more in a European or American style, it would go above the setting. But a lot of Brits now will—mainly because the American setting is so popular because America has such a influence on the world, and so she will often do that, particularly if space is tight. Whereas I think that's sort of—you know, that's basically worse than treason.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: And so I don't do that, but she will.

Nick: I did also read that you find puddings for dessert will exclude ice cream. You're not into having ice cream.

William Hanson: No. We may ...

Leah: Defend that.

William Hanson: We might have it with something, maybe in a more casual environment.

Nick: Okay.

William Hanson: But it will—generally, if you were at a state banquet, for example, you might get cream if you're lucky, but you might get a coulis or something like that. But it will sort of—well, it's a state banquet, so it's probably something like a tart or maybe a mousse, but it won't be—it sounds really unattractive when I say this, it won't be a wet pudding with ice cream or cream.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: So when is an appropriate time to have ice cream? Would we say breakfast?

William Hanson: Breakfast? Um, well maybe if you're—if you're sort of six, maybe. You know, we would have ice cream at the cinema, perhaps, if you're lucky, at the theater in the interval.

Leah: Okay.

William Hanson: Which is a very odd thing, and it's always very poor quality ice cream, but people—and it's so overpriced, but people go for that.

Nick: But at someone's home, "Come over for dinner. Casual night. Here's some ice cream." This is not happening in your world.

William Hanson: If we had a kitchen supper, I might do that. But if it was a dinner, I would not.

Nick: What is the difference between a dinner and a kitchen supper?

William Hanson: Ah, okay. This is so interesting, because there's so much that I take for granted in Britain and just think, "Well, of course everyone knows what a kitchen supper is." But of course, to an international audience, kitchen supper is another language. So if I said come for dinner to the both of you, you should expect a candelabra.

Nick: Oh!

William Hanson: Maybe a tablecloth, depending on the quality of the wood.

Nick: Excuse me.

William Hanson: Three courses.

Nick: All right.

William Hanson: Minimum.

Leah: Wow!

William Hanson: And, you know, it's a bit more of a thing.

Leah: Lovely.

Nick: And a pudding at the end.

William Hanson: Exactly.

Leah: Or a tart?

William Hanson: Yes, or a tart. And if I then said come for a kitchen supper or come for supper, then it would be maybe two courses, and it would be heartier food. So a lasagna, maybe a moussaka, chili con carne, and then a pudding. And probably quite a stodgy pudding, spotted dick, for example, which is a suet-based pudding with raisins and nothing else, bread and butter pudding, that sort of thing. And ice cream, custard cream, that sort of thing.

Nick: So that precision of language, I think actually that is also a key British etiquette thing. Whereas that very specific, very well-defined difference between "dinner" and "supper," like, that means something to your guest in that invitation. To an American audience, I think because we just make words so interchangeable, like, even with dress codes, black tie, we have a lot of different interpretations of what that means.

William Hanson: Yes.

Nick: So I feel like we do not have as clearly defined lines for the difference between "Come over for dinner," "Come over for supper." That's the same menu on our end.

William Hanson: Hmm.

Leah: I think it would be the same menu, but at different times. I think of supper as like a early—like, you know, I supper with my grandparents. Like a 5:00 pm ...

Nick: Nobody's having supper in New York City either.

Leah: I know, but this is ...

Nick: That's not a meal we're having.

Leah: Supper does not happen in the cities. Supper happens outside of the cities.

Nick: Supper needs a triangle bell on the porch.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: That's what that needs.

William Hanson: No, you see for us—so are you saying supper is more formal?

Nick: No. Supper is more cazh.

Leah: More casual.

William Hanson: So what's the triangle bell?

Leah: That's like what you're ringing when the cows come in.

Nick: When you're summoning the people from the fields.

William Hanson: I thought you meant like a dinner gong. I mean, it's the same principle.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: But it's—yeah.

Nick: I mean, it could be your dinner gong. Sure. Yeah, whatever gong you have in the house is fine.

William Hanson: Indeed. Yes.

Nick: But I would—if you were like, "Oh, invite me over for supper," my first thought would be like, "Oh, that's a weird word choice." But I wouldn't think the menu or the number of courses would be different than, like, "Oh, come over for dinner."

William Hanson: Oh, okay. Interesting.

Nick: So I think that—this might be also a very British thing.

William Hanson: Yes. Well, I'm now gonna have to go back and just check I've got all this in the book.

Nick: Yeah. you didn't ask me to proofread!

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: Spell it out. No, I know. I'm gonna—well, I've already written down a couple of things you said. I thought, "That's good for the afterword. That'll be—that'll be great." So thank you for helping me write it.

Nick: So when we think about global etiquette, okay, the United States, we're—we're on our way. We're doing our best. Are there any countries that are like, oh, they're really blowing it. You want to name names?

William Hanson: Yeah, so let's think. Well, the thing is I'm very fortunate in my job that I've been very lucky to go all over the world with it. And, you know, there are—there are countries that I think do it better than others. I think the Japanese are particularly good at protocol and respect.

Nick: Yeah. And those toilets!

William Hanson: Oh, they change your life. And I would say actually, probably the Japanese are the only country that make the British look laid back—probably.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: I think they're incredibly uptight—and that's coming from me. But I like—I like uptight. We can get on board with uptight. I think in China, because of the speed of business, that things are done over there—and I'm sorry to your Chinese audience, but I think sometimes they slip up. And it's an innocent slip up because they just haven't taken the time to pause. And I think actually, sometimes good courtesy and good manners actually is not being reactionary, and is just considering your actions like we were all taught in school.

Nick: Well, most of us.

Leah: [laughs] I was gonna say, "Were we taught that at school?"

Nick: [laughs] Have you been in an airport?

Leah: I don't think we did that.

William Hanson: No.

Nick: Have you been in a supermarket? [laughs]

William Hanson: Yeah. But no, I think every nation has their pros and cons with different things, and that sounds like a bit of a politician's answer, but ...

Nick: I do wonder ...

William Hanson: ... it's the answer I'm giving.

Nick: ... what do you think the Japanese think of us, or when they visit the UK? Like, what do you think they think when they're in our societies seeing what is happening?

William Hanson: Oh, I think they'd be horrified. I think even in Britain, I think they'd be absolutely horrified with—maybe not if they went to the English countryside where things are slower and slightly more genteel, but I think if they're in the big cities, whether it's New York, London or wherever, I think they'd be slightly horrified, particularly if they weren't that well traveled themselves in the first place. If they're sort of aware that actually this is not Downton Abbey replicated everywhere. And for years we worked in some residential courses in a country house in Cheshire, and the Chinese would come over and they were all absolutely horrified that in Britain, in country houses, you don't really have showers. I mean, it sounds—you bathe and you shower yourself, but you have—you know what I mean? A telephone shower. So you sit in ...

Nick: Right. The handheld wand thing.

William Hanson: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah.

William Hanson: And that's sort of—I mean, lots of houses are putting in these showers now because everyone prefers them. But that's what you did, and they sort of were expecting the Ritz level of service and pristine condition, whereas actually, what they don't necessarily understand about English aristocratic houses is they're a little bit down at heel. And if you're cold, you don't turn the heating up, you put another sweater on or a dog goes on the bed, or something to heat you up. And it's not quite as sort of chic as maybe it looks on the television.

Leah: That's how we do it in Maine, too. You just layer.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Leah: Nobody is turning any heat on. Just put—my mother wears a hat to bed. She is like, "We're not turning the heat up. That is inappropriate." [laughs]

William Hanson: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Nick: I wanted to hear what you think about etiquette in general and why it's so hard to get through to people. Like, we get it, our audience gets it. It matters. But there's a lot of people that hear the word "etiquette" and are like, "That doesn't apply to me. That's old. That's irrelevant." What do we do with these people? Because we have to live with these people. They're out there. I've left the house. I've seen them.

William Hanson: Yes, I will often say that—certainly coming to the etiquette courses that we do online or in person, we get nice people who want to be nicer. We don't get the really bad people in society that we see when we're going about our daily life, that you think "You really need an etiquette class, or need to listen to a podcast or read a book, or just—just have the reset button pressed on you as a human being."

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I love that!

William Hanson: I think etiquette has ...

Nick: If only there was a reset button on human beings.

Leah: You could be like, "Nope."

William Hanson: Pressing it all the time. I—the word etiquette itself and, you know, I had it with even my publisher for this book, is etiquette is a—it's so loaded with opinion already.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

William Hanson: I am very much of the belief etiquette is etiquette. We need it, I don't care, I want to own it, and own the fact that I am an etiquette coach. I'm not dressing that up in any other way. Tony Blair's government in Britain years ago, 20 years ago, started to do, in effect, what were etiquette lessons, but they felt they couldn't call it etiquette lessons because people would think it was sort of snobbery. So they called it "emotional intelligence." Now it's the same thing. We all know it's the same thing. "Manners" seem more accessible and less scary. "Etiquette" is a scary word, but it shouldn't be.

Nick: Yeah, but it is.

Leah: I think it definitely makes some people feel insecure. Like, they don't know, you know?

William Hanson: Yeah, and I think it's probably because they've had a bad experience at some point. And we used to have a show over here called Ladette to Lady, which I actually did briefly at the very, very start of my career. I think you had a similar in America called The Girls of Hedsor Hall, I think it was called. I don't think it did brilliantly well in America. It did all right here, but there, there were these sort of very draconian, matronly ladies who would scream at the ladettes, who were these sort of girls, perfectly lovely girls from underprivileged backgrounds in the UK or Australia—they also did the show.

William Hanson: And that's not etiquette. That's—yes, great. You can set a lovely table and they can set a lovely table, but actually just treating people with basic common sense and decency is so much more important than where you're sticking the napkin.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

William Hanson: And the napkin helps. There's a logic to it, of course, but there's other—there's other stuff that's probably more important. And I think those that sort of do automatically switch off—and I'm speaking, having just done two corporate trainings this week where obviously with a corporate training, the people that you're talking to are not the ones that have paid the invoice. They haven't asked for you.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: And so it's sometimes a bit like Sisyphus trying to push the stone up the hill, because they don't sort of want you there—certainly not to begin with. Hopefully they yield, and today's group actually were a lot better than yesterday's. So it's a funny old word. I don't know what—I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here with both you and the audience, obviously.

Nick: Yeah. I guess what do we do with this? We just own it and don't apologize.

William Hanson: Yeah, exactly. And just lead by example. That's really all we can do.

Leah: So if you had a collective noun group for rude people, people are sending in ideas for, like, what a group of rude people would be called.

William Hanson: Hmm.

Nick: Oh, the collective noun.

Leah: Like a murder of crows, a collective noun. And then where we would send them. I believe Nick wanted Narcotraz.

Nick: Yes. Narcitraz.

Leah: Narcitraz. For ...

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: ... narcissism.

Nick: Like Alcatraz, but for narcissists.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: I love it.

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: So if you had a collective noun group for rude people ...

William Hanson: Um, we just call them Australians.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Oh, can I just say I was just—I just had to get a suit. I had to play a therapist on something, and I was like, "I don't own shoulder pads." So I'm in the change room, and there is an Australian couple in the next change room. And she is—now I feel like Australians are gonna write me letters. Let me say I love Australians because they are the best at comedy shows because they're so gregarious. But in the change room, she's full on fighting with her husband, who's at the other end of the change room because he's not—she'll walk out and be like, "How do you like this?" And he didn't even look up from his phone, so she wasn't getting the compliments that she needed. And then they had a full fight in the dressing room, and it was the best day of my life. Honestly, I just sat there. I was like, "Can we get some popcorn? This is phenomenal!"

William Hanson: Well, great comic material for you.

Leah: [laughs] I know, it's so good! They tried to get us involved, to take sides. I was like, "You're phenomenal!"

William Hanson: Yeah, that's a—that's a bit much. I mean, my great—and you are absolutely right. Australians make phenomenal comedians. Barry Humphries is my all time absolute comedic love. I think he will probably never be topped in our lifetime. And he—he would say of Australians, as an Australian himself, just Australians have no class or sophistication whatsoever.

Nick: [laughs]

William Hanson: And they're lovely people. They're all—they all mean well, but they just sort of have a habit of just not doing anything with any style or grace, which is why they're good comic potential.

Leah: [laughs]

William Hanson: And I love them. And I've got Australians in my extended family, so I feel I can slightly own that.

Nick: Uh-huh. Okay. Oh, and I guess where we want to send rude people, the name of the fictional island?

Leah: It's called Australia.

Nick: It's called Australia.

William Hanson: Yes. It would be called Australia, yes. Yes. I'm trying to think of a different name.

Nick: No, no. That works.

William Hanson: Yes. Yeah, we'll just make sure that people have a way to contact you afterwards.

Nick: Yes. No, do William@WilliamHanson. That's fine.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is your opportunity to vent about some bad experience you've had, or you can repent for some etiquette faux pas you've committed. So William Hanson, would you like to vent or repent?

William Hanson: People always ask me do I—so I go around making etiquette faux pas? And obviously, I really try not to, because if I do, I—I go to pieces because I'm an etiquette consultant and I'm British as well. Sometimes if I'm not very hot on sending thank-you letters punctually, I slightly panic, but I think I would choose to vent in this instance.

Nick: All right, let's hear it.

William Hanson: So I don't mind if someone has not gone to finishing school, if someone has not listened to an episode of your podcast, my podcast, read any book—the good ones, the bad ones. They don't need to have done etiquette training, but if they do not say 'please,' 'thank you' or 'sorry' when in the correct context, when out and about, they should be struck off the human race. Not just the reset button, we should press the 'off' button because they have failed as a human being. Maybe I would allow them to have two strikes, so you're sort of a bit like in football or soccer, as you'd call it—and I think this is the right thing—you get a yellow card and then you get a red card and then you're off. So maybe we do that. And whilst I'm at it, I'm also going to—and I'm sure Leah as a performer, you get this, when you perform, people on their mobile phones that think that they will just check it, or that actually—and it doesn't just take their attention away, it takes everyone else's. And if I were Prime Minister or President of the United States, I would make it mandatory that ushers could taser these people.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: [laughs]

William Hanson: And then that would be that.

Nick: Okay!

Leah: So good.

William Hanson: Is that enough of a vent?

Leah: I—people that don't say please and thank you put me over.

Nick: Well it's so basic, people. It's so basic. It's just the fundamentals.

Leah: But it seems yet so hard. And then if you had somebody answer a phone during a performance? I've seen people—you're like "Oh, not only is it ringing, you're gonna go in!"

William Hanson: Are you ever tempted to rip the phone off them and talk to the person?

Leah: I've seen comics do it. I've seen comics pull the phone.

Nick: Oh, Patti LuPone is famous for this. Sure.

William Hanson: Yeah.

Nick: Yeah, she'll just grab that phone out of the audience member's hands, toss it to a stagehand. That's the end of that.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. Absolutely.

William Hanson: I don't know why—I just would love to be inside their minds just to see what's going on.

Nick: We often ask why do people do what they do?

William Hanson: Do you think theater etiquette's got worse in—over with you since Covid? Because we all think since Covid it's got particularly worse here.

Nick: There is a theory that things are worse now, but things have never been good. Plato complained about this thousands of years ago. He wanted to hit audience members with a stick. Emily Post, in her book, she was talking about how people ruined the theater, and if you want to talk, you should stay home and listen to the phonograph. So it's just—nothing is new. We have not come with—nothing is new.

Leah: I feel like right after Covid, when we were just allowed to go back in, that moment where people were so thrilled, there was, like, two weeks in there where I felt like everybody was so nice and attentive and thrilled to be there. I was doing some rooftop shows. Everybody was so excited for live entertainment. They listened. And then that two weeks was over and they're like, "Ah."

William Hanson: Mm-hmm.

Nick: Because we can't have nice things.

William Hanson: No. No, it's the rise of the ego, and that people think that whatever they are doing is the most important.

Nick: Main character syndrome is a bit of an issue, yes.

William Hanson: Absolutely.

Nick: Well, thank you for being our main character today, William. There's way more William Hanson at WilliamHanson.co.uk, where you can also send him your feedback if you're Australian.

William Hanson: [laughs]

Nick: And you can preorder his new book, we'll post links to that in our show notes. And thank you. This is such a treat!

William Hanson: This has been a delight. Thank you so much for having me.

Leah: Thank you so much for joining us.

Nick: And you out there? Thanks for joining us too. Do you have a question for us or a vent or repent? Let us know. You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can send us a text message or leave us a voicemail: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

William Hanson: Goodbye!

Nick: Bye!