Cordially Invited: Sara Jane Ho

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And today we have cordially invited Sara Jane Ho to join us! Sara Jane Ho is a Harvard Business School grad, Netflix star, manners expert and Etiquette Institute founder. And her new book, Mind Your Manners, just came out this week. Sara Jane, thank you for joining us.

Leah: We're so excited!

Sara Jane Ho: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Nick: So your new book, tell us everything.

Sara Jane Ho: So Mind your Manners, it's the same name as my Netflix show. And it's an extension of that. It's really for anybody who's interested in human connection, which we as humans, we need that sense of belonging. And out of—coming out of epidemic, I noticed that, you know, we're just feeling so isolated these days, especially the next generation. So I wanted to come out with something that would really help people be their best selves in any situation.

Nick: And I read it—I got an advance copy. And what I loved is that you have great advice, but you also illustrate that advice through stories from your own life, which I thought was really a nice way to do it because it was like, "Oh, she's—she's gone through this. She had that roommate. She had that experience at a party."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And I really loved that.

Sara Jane Ho: Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I've made lots of mistakes and encountered many awkward situations myself, so I wanted to leverage those and share them with everybody. Because, you know, I'm not—I'm definitely like, not Miss Perfect. I'm more Miss Manners with a touch of Machiavelli.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Ooh, what a combination! [laughs]

Leah: What a combination!

Nick: Wait, so are you using manners to get what you want?

Leah: [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: You know, you can. And here's the thing that some people tell me, "Oh, you know, I have no manners. I'm too honest to have manners." That really confuses me. I think people who say that, they don't really understand what etiquette and manners is about. I always say you can say what you feel and you can say the truth. It's all about how you say it, and that's what a lot of manners is.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: We absolutely agree with that. I think when people say they want to be honest, they are just saying they want to be mean. [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: [laughs]

Nick: And one thing I enjoyed reading in your book was this idea of charm, like, versus charisma. And I guess can you talk a little bit about, like, oh, what—what is charm and how do we get more of it?

Sara Jane Ho: Well, you know, as Coco Chanel said, "Charm is better than beauty because it lasts longer."

Nick: Oh, good point!

Sara Jane Ho: And I feel that, you know, when you think about when you go to a dinner party, right, there's always that person who you love having at a social gathering because they have charm. And part of being somebody who—who really can make an impact and add value at a social gathering—which is something that if you're gonna go to a social gathering, you should try to add value. That's the reason you were invited. And, you know, that's why you would want to be invited again. It's to be interested and interesting.

Sara Jane Ho: Now to be interesting, of course, that includes reading up on world events, current news, right? Just being aware of things that are going on in the world, and to be interested and to show an interest in other people. I always say that—and I was raised this way. My parents always said you can learn something from everybody. It doesn't matter how old they are, where they're from, what they do. Everybody has a life experience and story that—that you haven't had that you can learn from. So I see—and I tell my students this too. I see people as a rosebud, and you have to open them up. I also—in the book, I also call it nonsexual flirting.

Leah: [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: Because flirting is showing sexual interest in somebody, right? If you remove the sexual, it's like it's showing interest in somebody. And so that's part of being interesting and being interested in other people. Because if let's say you don't know what to say, right, or there's a topic you don't talk about that you don't have knowledge on, then approach it from the mindset of" I'm gonna learn. I'm a student. I'm interested." And you have to coax a story out of a person.

Nick: Yeah, that's a great point.

Leah: Which I feel you—I loved in your Netflix show that it was under the umbrella of etiquette, but then as you—as you said earlier, you're really helping people live their best lives, be their best selves. And we sort of—you pull all these things out of all of your different guests in the different episodes, and I loved it so much. I thought it was such a—it was so great to see people, as you say, blossom.

Sara Jane Ho: Thank you so much. I'm—it always means so much to me when people watch my show.

Nick: Yeah. Oh no, it's super fun. One thing that comes up, I think, in etiquette a lot is this idea of why should anybody care? And I think you are part of a long lineage of etiquette writers, where part of your job is to try and actually convince the reader why they should care at all about etiquette. And what do we do with this? Because, like, the people who are listening to us today, they're trying to actually be nice, kind, considerate, polite people in the world. We're not worried about them. It's everybody else. It's everybody else at the airport, it's everybody else on the subway, at Starbucks. It's like, what do we do with these people who actually don't think that this applies to them at all? Doesn't make a difference in their life. Why—why should it matter? And what do we do to get through to these people?

Sara Jane Ho: Okay, so I have a couple answers to your question. Firstly, we're being told by the media, by everybody to say you shouldn't care, right? Like, that's the narrative these days. Anti-aging is a bad word. You shouldn't care about aging, right? You shouldn't care about this. You shouldn't care about that. But, you know, what I'm saying is you should be free to care. You should be free to care how you look, how you feel, however you want, right? You should be free to care that you want to be—you want to make a positive impression on somebody, and you want to form meaningful social bonds.

Sara Jane Ho: So that's my ethos in everything I do, whether my Netflix show or my book or I just launched a beauty brand, a wellness brand that's an intimate care brand formulated with traditional Chinese medicine, which it's called Antevorta. So everything I do is about that, and helping people move with confidence through the world. And then to answer your question about all the people that are rude?

Nick: Yeah, those people. [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: [laughs]

Nick: I've left the house, I've met them.

Sara Jane Ho: You know, I would say that a lot of times people are not intentionally rude. It's usually a lack of awareness. It's something that they didn't grow up with. And that's why I believe that the most beautiful gift a parent can give their kids is to teach them good manners, and that this should be a legacy, right? And passed down from generation to generation. That's why they always say you can tell a lot about a child's family values and upbringing, right, from the way they treat people. Do they treat people with respect? Are they well mannered?

Sara Jane Ho: So I think a lot of it is unintentional. A lot of it comes from a lack of awareness, because they didn't grow up with manners in the house. But yeah, but what do we do with those people? Well, I think it's most important to have a dialogue going on. And that's why I've noticed actually—because I've been doing etiquette for 10 years. When I graduated from Harvard Business School, I moved to Beijing, set up China's first finishing school for adult ladies. But what I'm noticing is that post-pandemic, these two years in the West, there's been a huge trend of etiquette, too. When you look at, like, New Yorkmagazine and Curbed ...

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Sara Jane Ho: ... I love their etiquette guides. Now Vogue is coming out with an etiquette column called "Oh, Behave," right? And it's something that—I think sometimes things have to be broken for it to be fixed.

Nick: Oh!

Sara Jane Ho: And every time I open the news now, I read a new story about epic rudeness, sometimes even violence. What happened to politicians at least being statesmen?

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Sara Jane Ho: Look at cyberbullying, right? Like, on Twitter, even at school amongst kids. So I think that now we've reached a point where we're realizing, okay, we do need this back in our lives.

Nick: So we hit rock bottom, basically. [laughs] Okay.

Leah: And I really like people, so I care very much. [laughs]

Nick: Right. Speaking of etiquette, let's talk about American etiquette, because you grew up in Papua New Guinea, and then I guess were off to Hong Kong and the UK before you arrived in the United States. How are we doing? How are we doing in the United States with our etiquette? How do you think American etiquette compares to some of the other etiquettes out there?

Sara Jane Ho: Well, so here's the thing with etiquette: it's contextual. And I would say that it depends on what country you're in, who you're with. So for example, if in the West, let's say, you eat your soup, you're supposed to do it quietly. In Asia—and particularly Northern Asia, like, let's say China, Japan, Korea, when you drink your soup, let's say your miso soup or whatever you're drinking, you smack your lips to show that it's tasty, right? But to do that, to be noisy while eating your soup in the West would be considered bad manners, right? Or poor etiquette. And so that's why I always say etiquette is really—it really depends on context, who you're with, where you are.

Nick: But it does feel like there are places in the world that are, like, less mindful than others, right? A little bit.

Sara Jane Ho: Are you talking about America?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah. I mean, you know, in my travels it feels like it's a little uneven.

Sara Jane Ho: [laughs]

Nick: It can be a little uneven out there, even with that context. You know, even in America, like, oh, we know what the context should be, but is there like, oh, are we really nailing it? I don't know.

Sara Jane Ho: I think even in America it's so different, right? The South versus California versus Midwest versus Northeast. And so you have all these micro cultures. And, you know, my favorite course at Georgetown, where I went to undergrad, was anthropology because I lived in all these—you know, I'm a third culture kid, right? I grew up in all these different cultures. And then what I realized was—and anthropology is a study of cultures, right? Study of human behavior. I realized that actually our life consists of multiple microcultures, and I talk about this in the book.

Sara Jane Ho: And it's not just micro cultures where it's like, okay, your friends and then your office and that's that. Within friends, you have, like, multiple sub-microcultures, right? So your friends at school, even in a company, different departments have their own little microcultures, too. And I often say that it's every time I go in with a new group of people, I'm meeting people for the first time, whether it's a country or anything, when I go enter, I see myself as a microcultural anthropologist. I'm sitting there, I'm thinking, "What are the codes of conduct here? How are people speaking? What is their accent? What is the slang being used? How are they dressed? What is their tone of voice?" And I subconsciously adopt that.

Sara Jane Ho: So because I spent time in the UK and I spent time in the US, I always wondered, like, how come my accent subconsciously changes depending on who I'm speaking to? Like, if I speak to a Brit, all of a sudden I sound way more English. Speaking to you guys, sound way more American. And only later on did I learn that actually, it's—it's a way of—it's also subconsciously etiquette, but I'm speaking to be more like you so that you better understand what I'm saying. And so I almost feel like each microculture you—each time a new person enters, it's about learning the codes of conduct and adopting them to have that sense of belonging.

Nick: That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Well, speaking of codes of conduct, Leah, you have some questions.

Leah: Yes! We brought out some of our questions that we always go over and over in the podcast. One of my favorites is: if you're in a shared laundry room, like, in your building has a laundry room, and somebody has left their clothes in the dryer and you need to use the dryer, how long is appropriate to leave their clothes in the dryer before you take them out and use the dryer?

Sara Jane Ho: My answer would be: depends if anybody's watching.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Ooh! Twist! Okay, go on.

Sara Jane Ho: You know, I grew up in dorms at boarding school, right? New York buildings with, like, shared laundries and dryers. If there's nobody watching, I take it out immediately.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Oh, zero minutes!

Sara Jane Ho: And then I put my clothes in, and then I get out of there as soon as possible. And listen, like, nobody could open the door anyway when it's in motion, right?

Nick: Okay. Yeah, so we're not worried about sabotage.

Sara Jane Ho: Exactly.

Nick: Okay. I gotta—I gotta say, I am a little surprised by this answer. I was not expecting this from you. I was expecting, like, "Oh, you should wait half an hour and then you should put out a search party."

Sara Jane Ho: Oh, it depends if somebody's watching. So if there's somebody else and it's not their clothes—well, first I would ask them, like, "Are these yours?" And they'd say, "Oh, no. No." And then I'd say, "Oh, okay." And then I'd wait five minutes. I'd be like, "Whoa! Gosh, like, 15 minutes have gone by and this person still hasn't arrived. I think—I think I'm just gonna—" and then just go for it.

Nick: Amazing. Okay.

Leah: Nick and I are on very opposite ends of that spectrum. Nick would wait three to five minutes and I would wait the rest of my life. I would never take them out.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I would blow dry all my clothes and be like, I don't want to get involved. [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: [laughs]

Nick: The next question?

Leah: Our next question is: if you had the power to permanently end—we call it an etiquette crime—one etiquette crime, just pull it off, it's never happening again, what would that one etiquette crime be?

Sara Jane Ho: Okay, so it's between two. Can I say the two? And then we can choose which one.

Nick: I mean, we have rules, though. I think we said one. All right, we're gonna let it slide.

Leah: I have three, so I'm fine with two.

Sara Jane Ho: All right. People who clip their nails in public or not in a bathroom.

Nick: What is happening? Why are we doing that?

Leah: What is happening with that?

Nick: Why is that a thing?

Leah: It's so big in New York on the subway.

Nick: Oh, yeah. No, it's ...

Leah: Rampant on the New York subway.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Sara Jane Ho: Okay. I thought it was just China, but I guess not.

Nick: Oh, no.

Leah: Oh, no.

Nick: No, that's global.

Leah: Very global.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah.

Sara Jane Ho: Wow. Because in China, like, in office spaces you will hear colleagues. Like, it'll be like clip, clip, clip, clip. And it's like no, that's just gross. You should only do it in your bathroom. Even if you do it in your living room, to me that's gross.

Leah: We had somebody write in this week whose colleague was clipping their toenails in their office. [laughs]

Sara Jane Ho: Yeah.

Nick: Like, what's the advice? What do we do? What do we do? If this is happening, what do we tell this person?

Sara Jane Ho: Yeah. I mean, if it's a colleague, then call them out and shame them publicly. And act like it's spontaneous. Be like, "Is somebody clipping their nails in the office?" And then, like, you know, walk her out and be like, "Oh, Tom! Are those your toenails?" And that should be enough for them to put it away. And act like it's, like, unrestrained, you couldn't control yourself.

Nick: Spontaneous is key.

Leah: I love this. Yeah. I was thinking I'd walk around and go, "Oh my goodness. Sorry, I thought there was a horse in here. I didn't know what was happening."

Nick: But people who do this, I don't think they have shame. So, like, even publicly shaming them in the office, like, is that even effective? It feels like they're immune to this.

Sara Jane Ho: If they see that a colleague is discombobulated by this, then they should know. They should have, like, that immediate reaction, "Well, ooh gosh, am I doing something wrong?" And then I'm sure another colleague or two will be like, "Oh my God, Tom! Like, put that nail clipper away." You know?

Leah: That collective shaming. A group shaming.

Nick: And what was your second choice for etiquette things to permanently end?

Sara Jane Ho: Okay, my second choice was people who watch videos on their phone in public, especially in small spaces like airplanes or trains. This drives me nuts.

Nick: Yeah. And why are people doing this? I mean, because I think we did a—we did an experiment as a society and we're like, "Let's give this a try where we're gonna listen to everybody else's stuff." And then I think we all decided. We took a vote and we're like, "No, we don't want that."

Leah: Earphones.

Sara Jane Ho: Yeah. And I'm—I'm the person who—like, I will call over the stewardess and say, "Seat 12B is being very noisy. Can you please ask them to pipe down?"

Nick: Yeah. Subcontract that. You don't want to get involved.

Leah: I feel like the games when people have their games on in the high volume, and you're just sitting there and it's like, ding, ding! And you're like, "I'm gonna lose my mind."

Nick: And Leah, our third question?

Leah: Our third question, which we have been—our listeners have been sending in ideas, so it's like a running—we have a running Google doc of possible answers. It's: where would we send all of the rude people in the world to live on an island? And what would the name of the island be?

Sara Jane Ho: Um, it would be called Damaged Island. And there should be a lot of therapists on that island.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I love that they all get therapy. I think that's so great.

Nick: So now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is your opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience you've had recently, or you can repent for some etiquette faux pas you've committed. So Sara Jane Ho, would you like to vent or repent?

Sara Jane Ho: Hmm. I mean, there's a lot for both, you know? [laughs] But I think it would be bad for my image if I repented.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Okay. All right, let's—let's hear a vent.

Sara Jane Ho: So I will vent.

Nick: Okay. What has happened?

Sara Jane Ho: So I was at a formal dinner, and there were like quite a few tables. There was maybe, you know, 100 people. And there was seating, right? So there are name cards. And there was this girl who I knew, she's like an acquaintance, and she was seated at a table she didn't want to sit at, so she swapped her seating card ...

Nick: No, she didn't!

Sara Jane Ho: ... with another table so she could sit at, you know, the cool table with all the girls she wanted to sit with.

Nick: Uh-huh?

Sara Jane Ho: And I saw this, and I called her out and shamed her.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Okay!

Sara Jane Ho: I said, "Valerie!" Again, the spontaneous, unrestrained, like, in disbelief. Just, "Valerie, are you changing your name card? Are you changing your seating placement? I don't know how Yvonne is gonna react when she finds that out."

Nick: And did she swap it back? Did that work?

Sara Jane Ho: Yeah. Well, then obviously all eyes were on her. And she looked very sheepish. And then somebody else then, you know, followed up and was like, "Oh my God, Valerie, what are you doing? Like, swap it back!"

Nick: [laughs] All right. So a good lesson. Do not mess with a seating chart. It's done for a reason. Yeah. Yeah, that is super rude, for sure.

Leah: I also love the theme of, like, a collective. This was also with the nail clipping, like, the theme of, like, we're gonna call it out publicly in shock, and have everybody sort of be like, "You're doing what?" And then as a group, that person gets admonished.

Nick: I mean, etiquette does require group participation. It only works if we all get on board.

Sara Jane Ho: Yup.

Nick: Well, Sara Jane Ho, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a real treat.

Leah: Thank you so much!

Sara Jane Ho: Pleasure was mine. It's been really fun.

Nick: And of course, we will be sending you a handwritten thank-you note on our custom stationery.

Sara Jane Ho: Thank you. Can't wait to receive it.

Nick: And you out there, thank you so much for joining us. Do you have a question for us, or a vent or repent? Let us know! You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can send us a text message or leave us a voicemail: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Sara Jane Ho: Bye!

Nick: Bye!