Complaining in Restaurants, Backing Out of Weddings, Taking People's Airline Seats, and More

Nick: Do you give people knives? Do you uninvite your relatives to your wedding? Do you take people's seats on airplanes? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

[Theme Song]

Here are things that can make it better

When we have to live together

We can all use a little help

So people don't ask themselves

Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: I love amuse bouche days.

Nick: So for today's amuse bouche, Leah, we are invited to Chad and Lisa's wedding.

Leah: Are we going together?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, this amuse bouche actually does not involve the wedding itself. It involves us selecting the perfect gift for them.

Leah: Oh, okay.

Nick: And so they have registered. Of course they have. And instead of doing something fabulous and thoughtful, we're just gonna go and buy something off the registry.

Leah: So my favorite thing. [laughs]

Nick: Yes, Leah does like a registry. Yes. I have different thoughts. So they have registered for lots of different things, and I think we are going to buy them the classic eight-inch Wusthof chef's knife. You know, they registered for knives. This is a great knife to have. Let's buy them a knife. And unfortunately, this gift is a little tricky, though. We actually cannot have this sent directly to them from the store. We have to go and pick it up because we need to send something along with this gift and the store does not have this thing. So Leah, what are we sending with this knife?

Leah: I hope it's a sharpener.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. No, I mean a sharpener, a store might have a sharpener. And it's not a sharpener. That's not what we're sending.

Leah: A card?

Nick: Okay. Yeah, I mean, a card. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Leah: Oh wow, Nick.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: It's not a card. It's not a sharpener. I mean, I don't even know what ...

Nick: I mean, your clues. Your clues are that we are sending them a knife.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: We are giving them a knife. And when we give a knife, there's something you need to do.

Leah: I assume it comes with a cover. It's not like we're sending ...

Nick: Just a loose knife in an envelope?

Leah: We're not sending a loose—and we're also—are we sending a sheet of paper that says, "I promise not to get angry and use this in marital fights?"

Nick: I mean, we could add that. Yeah, we could definitely add that. No, what we are sending along with this knife is ...

Leah: I really—is there a world in which I could guess this?

Nick: Uh, yeah. I mean ...

Leah: Like, do we always send an apple? You know, is it like, is it something that I should have just—can I get a hint? Can I get a letter?

Nick: Okay, you want a hint? It is small, and it is also made of metal.

Leah: Wow! I mean, I wish you could see inside my brain right now of just, like, the slides of small metal things going in front. And then I'm like, maybe it has like a—like a nameplate on it, or is it a thing to rest the knife on?

Nick: So what we're gonna send them is a penny. One US cent. A small coin.

Leah: Okay, I never would have gotten there.

Nick: [laughs] And so I guess you have not heard of this. This is not a tradition that you are familiar with.

Leah: Imagine if I had heard of it and that was all acting. [laughs]

Nick: Oh, that—very convincing. Wow! Those acting classes, Leah, are really paying off.

Leah: Thank you!

Nick: So this tradition dates back to medieval Europe, but probably longer. And the idea is that sharp objects like knives and swords were considered bad gifts because they symbolized the cutting of bonds of friendship, of love, of family ties. And this concept also pops up in Asia. I mean, this is pretty global because knives are pretty old in terms of, like, human civilization. And humans, we love symbolism. We love it! And so the solution to this problem is it is not a gift. It is a transaction. And so we solve this by making you buy the knife from me. And so I give you the knife and I give you a penny, and the idea is you give the penny back to me to quote-unquote, "purchase the knife."

Leah: Wow!

Nick: Right?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: So it's not a gift.

Leah: What if the penny is never given back?

Nick: Well, then that's rude. Yeah. Or it just means they don't know about this tradition.

Leah: [laughs] Yeah. And they were like, "Why did Nick and Leah send me a penny? This must have slipped in here."

Nick: So it's a great tradition, though. I mean, I think as we go along through time, like in the 19th and 20th centuries, like, nobody was worried about the actual superstition and the knife actually causing this harm to the relationship. But the idea of, like, oh, giving a penny as a gift to buy it and, like, that exchange is kind of just a nice custom. And so it continues.

Leah: It is. It's really fun.

Nick: Right?

Leah: It's so fun.

Nick: And some knife brands and retailers actually occasionally, like, throw in this penny thing as, like, a promotion. So it does pop up from time to time. But yeah, I understand that it's not as well known as it should be, which is why we're talking about it today.

Leah: I love it. Also, next time somebody goes, "Penny for your thoughts," I'm gonna go, "Penny for your knife?"

Nick: There you go.

Leah: [laughs] What?

Nick: Now Letitia Baldrige actually has a variation on this. So Letitia, we remember her, she's very into "executive manners." And she says quote, "If your gift is sharp or pointed, such as a bar knife or letter opener, send or present it with a cork placed on the sharp point. This will counteract any vestige of the old superstition that a gift with a sharp point is meant to be driven into the recipient's heart."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So ...

Leah: I like that, too!

Nick: That's—I mean, that's a kind of a twist on that. But the cork thing? I've actually not heard of the cork thing until Tish brought this up. Like, it's a penny. Don't send corks, everybody. No, you gotta send the coin.

Leah: I enjoy them both deeply.

Nick: And so if you're getting married and you've registered for knives and someone sends you a penny, like, you have to send the penny back. And even though it is technically a transaction, you still need to send a thank-you note because it's a gift. I mean, come on. It's a gift. So don't skip that. But send the penny back with the thank-you note.

Leah: I was gonna say put it in the thank-you note!

Nick: And if they didn't send a penny, you could still send a penny back as long as you explain to them, like, oh, what is this tradition. So that's also kind of a nice way to do it.

Leah: That is very fun.

Nick: So there you go. So next time you buy somebody a knife, include a coin. Oh, and this works for any currency. It does not have to be a US penny. It could just be any monetary unit in whatever currency you'd like.

Leah: This is so fun. I mean, I never would have guessed that. We could have gone on for hours.

Nick: I know. These are the best. [laughs]

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and out for a meal.

Nick: So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about how to complain in a restaurant.

Leah: I think we should leave me being silent for 30 to 45 seconds.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: Just uncomfortable air.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, that dead air? That was Leah not wanting to weigh in. Because I imagine you have never done this.

Leah: You know, I have once. I didn't ...

Nick: Really?

Leah: I mean, it depends on what you consider to be complaining.

Nick: Okay. That's a fair place to start. Okay. I mean, I think speaking up if something's not right.

Leah: Okay. Because there's complaining like, "I need to email the manager about this." And then there's the complaining, like, I once had—I feel like I brought this up before—a screw fell into my ...

Nick: I don't ...

Leah: I was like a child. And I remember being like, "I'm just gonna eat around it." So it's been in ...

Nick: Like a bolt?

Leah: Yeah. Like, a bolt fell out of the ceiling or ...

Nick: Like a piece of metal with threads.

Leah: And I was like, "It's been heated up."

Nick: Phillips head? Do you remember? Okay.

Leah: Well, it had the nut on it.

Nick: Oh! So—oh, wow. The whole—okay.

Leah: The whole thing.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And I was like, "It's okay." But I—one time I returned something because it wasn't one I ordered, which is not a deal breaker for me—sometimes I like a surprise—but it was something that I will not eat.

Nick: Right. So I think I have only done it on very few occasions because I—my strategy is I'm just not gonna come back. But, like, I'll tough this out. But yes, if you bring me something that is not correct, like, I didn't order this, or it is clearly not, like, what was discussed, and it's important to me that, like, oh, I have the dish I need and wanted, then, like, I would speak up. But other than that, if I just don't like it or it's just not, like, prepared well, I'm not gonna say anything.

Leah: Yeah. I can't imagine being like, "This is not how I wanted it." I just—I also am the same way. It's not that I'm incapable of sending something back. It's just not worth it to me.

Nick: Just emotionally?

Leah: Emotionally.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I'd rather just sit there and have a good time. I do think, though, if something is dirty, it's fine to be like, "Can I switch out this plate?"

Nick: Yes. I mean, I think health and safety, like, oh, there's like, something on my glass. Or, like, oh, this is—yeah, can we swap something out? Yeah. That's also fair. I don't think that's complaining. I think that's sort of making a reasonable request.

Leah: It is, but I feel like some people are worried that that's—I also think maybe you're seated next to, like—I feel like I've been seated near an air conditioner before.

Nick: Oh, you felt a draft?

Leah: And I was like, "I'm gonna get cold." And I'll be like, "May I move seats?" You know?

Nick: Yes. Oh, actually—oh, okay. I was in Atlanta, and I was—and maybe I even sent you a photo from this restaurant. So I was dining alone because we were—it was like the night before our live show in Atlanta. And I picked a restaurant that had good reviews, and it was sort of like midweek, so it wasn't that busy. And so they sat me down, and it was sort of like a cool, like, vibe, like, dim. But they picked the one table for me that was directly under a klieg light. It was a college football stadium light, and it was directly above this table. It was so—it was too bright to actually, like, film videos for social media. It was the brightest light you've ever seen. I mean, it was like being on the sun. And it was so bright that the rest of the room was so dark. Like, you couldn't actually see anything else. It was like being on stage at a theater with the lights in your eyes. And it was sort of like, I cannot do this for 90 minutes. Like, is it possible just to slide down two tables where I am not being interrogated in a police station right now?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So I—was that complaining? I was very nice about it, and I feel like it was very reasonable because, like, it was wild what was happening with this lighting.

Leah: So funny that they would seat you there, too, when there are all these—it's completely empty.

Nick: Yeah. I was trying to think, like, is it something about me? Am I coming in with, like, a New York vibe? Which they're like—or is it—is my skin tone so great, they're like, "He can handle it."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Like, I don't know. I don't know. So I guess yeah, is that complaining? I mean, that was a reasonable request, But I guess the trick is, whatever it is, you just want to identify the issue clearly. We just have to identify the issue succinctly and clearly, and we want to avoid blame. So, like, "Oh, I think there might be some mistake here with this dish. I ordered the steak. This is the pasta." We're not saying who made the mistake. We're not saying how it happened. We're just saying, like, I think a mistake has happened.

Leah: Yes. And as having been a server for a long time, you just go, "Oh, of course." And we don't need to argue about it. People shouldn't be arguing with you. Although I did once. I did once.

Nick: And as a server?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Uh oh, what happened?

Leah: So I worked at a jazz club that will not be named.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: Did I not—have I not told this story?

Nick: I mean, I remember that they, like, withheld, like, all your paychecks.

Leah: No, this is same place. So sometimes you would get the musicians and their guests.

Nick: I see. Okay.

Leah: So I had the girlfriend of the musician. So she brought her friend. So I go over, and she—I will never forget this. She goes, "May I have the salmon?"

Nick: Okay.

Leah: "Yes, of course." And then her friend says, "I would also like the salmon."

Nick: Okay.

Leah: I say, "Okay." What would you then tell the chef, Nick, that they wanted?

Nick: I think you brought this up in, like, episode two. Five years ago. I think we discussed this. I would go into the kitchen and I would say, "Two salmons, please."

Leah: Yes. So I ordered two salmons.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And I bring them out, and they're—they're angry with me because they wanted to just split the salmon.

Nick: Okay. That is not how the grammar works.

Leah: Yeah. And also, they're not paying for it. Like ...

Nick: Just keep two salmon.

Leah: Just keep two salmons. And then I would have let it go. I would have been like, "Okay. But I—I just—" they were already angry. It wasn't like, "Oh, we only wanted one." They were already angry at me. And I was like, "Oh, I'm sorry. You said—I thought you said that you would also like the salmon." And she's like, "I did say that." And I was like, "Okay. Well, that means two." And I just couldn't suck it up. And so then she brought the manager over.

Nick: Oh!

Leah: And he yelled at me in front of them.

Nick: Oh, great.

Leah: And I was—I couldn't back down. I go, "I'm sorry. I just can't unlearn English."

Nick: [laughs] I guess what she should have said was, "I'll have her salmon."

Leah: Yeah. Or, "Can I get a plate? I'd love to split that."

Nick: Right.

Leah: Or, "I'll share." Any of the words that means—it's just so funny when you can't—like, there are things I'll just apologize and take it. You know what I mean? But I'm not gonna pretend that words aren't words. I just can't do it.

Nick: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry. I mean, this will stick with you. This will stick with you.

Leah: I'm fairly sure I left days after that, so ...

Nick: Yeah. So we want to stick to the facts. This is the next thing on my list. Stick to the facts and avoid exaggeration. So, like, what exactly is wrong in this situation? You know, just be factual about it.

Leah: Yeah. You don't have to get, like, worked up.

Nick: Yeah. And don't make stuff up at this point.

Leah: Don't pretend words aren't words.

Nick: Don't pretend—yes. The word "also" doesn't mean "in addition."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And then I think an important thing for customer service in general is decide before you even engage what is it that you want?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: What's the desirable outcome for you? Because, like, there are these people that just wanna complain for complaining's sake. And, like, don't do that because, like, that's just exhausting for everybody and nobody has time for that.

Leah: Don't do it.

Nick: And so if you just wanna be aggrieved, just, like, do that at home. So what do you want? So I would like the dish that I ordered, or I would like a new fork, or I would like whatever it is, but just, like, know what that is before we engage, because you're gonna need to articulate that clearly.

Leah: And I think obviously with people having a lot of food allergies, like, that's a thing that's worth flagging somebody down and being like, "Hey, I just want to make sure there was no dairy in this."

Nick: Right. Yeah. Yeah, like, "Oh, reminder. I had a nut allergy. I see there's walnuts all over this."

Leah: Yeah, you'll be like, "This looks a lot like cheese. So I'm just checking." [laughs]

Nick: Right. And then related to that, though, we also need to be reasonable. Like, you're not gonna get a free meal just because they, like, were two minutes late with, like, the butter. Like, that's not proportional.

Leah: I think there's a very happy medium between recognizing that people are busy and then expecting people to check in on you.

Nick: Yes. And this is also a little cultural. Like, certainly in different parts of the United States, like, what is considered "good service," quote-unquote, is very different. Certainly in Europe, you know, the idea of, like, a waiter checking in on you and, like, dropping the check is, like, a very different story than, like, at the Cheesecake Factory in Des Moines. And so both are correct in their respective areas, but just also know that, like, oh, there are regional differences to, like, service.

Leah: I can't even tell you how much I want to eat. As soon as you said that, I imagined myself eating in Europe, and then I immediately imagined myself at the Cheesecake Factory. And both were phenomenal. And I mean, my mouth is watering.

Nick: I wonder if there's Cheesecake Factory in Europe.

Leah: This is a thing we could Google.

Nick: Yeah, it's—I guess it is knowable. I can't imagine they do.

Leah: You can't imagine one?

Nick: I mean, where would it be?

Leah: They might just have one for fun.

Nick: And then I guess, you know, if you just don't get what you need and you're still mad about it, then, like, you could follow up, you know, with the restaurant and the manager the next day. Or I guess you could follow up the manager that evening if it really needed to be resolved then.

Leah: I also think obviously, if something is horrible, if somebody's rude to you, if somebody says something that's, like, out of line.

Nick: Oh, sure. Yes. Yeah, there's a time and place. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I'm not saying just, like, take it on the chin.

Leah: No, obviously that is not appropriate.

Nick: But yeah, I think we just want to make sure our response is proportional to what has actually happened. And I guess that's, I think, where we often go wrong.

Leah: Hmm.

Nick: Hmm.

Leah: Mm-hmm.

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: I'm still thinking about the salmon, Nick. Now that we brought it up, I'm riled up all over again. I wish I could find that lady now and be like, "How's life working out for ya?"

Nick: [laughs] "It's going well! And also well."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] It is funny that, like, you did tell that story in, like, episode, you know, single digit, and it is amazing how, like, oh, these things just stay with us.

Leah: They just stay with you. It was also the—I won't repeat what the owner of it said. It wasn't the manager, it was the owner of the club said to me, but it was wild!

Nick: Okay. Oh, I look forward to hearing what that was off mic.

Leah: [laughs] And then I just was like, "Sorry, but I—this is what these words mean." And it wasn't like English was their second language. I'm not being ...

Nick: Oh, no, no, no. No, no, this is just—no, I could picture the scene.

Leah: It was these people, and for some reason, they just couldn't keep the salmon. They wanted me to apologize to them. Like, it was a whole—they just wanted to be a whole thing. They needed to be a whole thing. And I just couldn't. I just couldn't. I had nothing left in me.

Nick: They got what they wanted.

Leah: I never apologized.

Nick: Oh, so they didn't get what they wanted?

Leah: No, I don't apologize for things I'm not sorry for, which I'm sure also will shock you. Obviously, I'll do the "Sorry!" when you, like, bump into people. "Sorry!" But, like, I'm not gonna look somebody in the eye and be like, "Sorry I understood exactly what you were saying and your words were incorrect, and I made a correct assumption based off the words you said."

Nick: [laughs] All right. Leah Bonnema will not apologize.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So that's complaining. Oh, I guess last last thing. I guess, you know, before you put them on blast on social media or Yelp the next day, like, just make sure that that's earned. Sometimes it's earned but, like, just do that self check. Be like, is this earned? Because, like, there's a lot of small business owners out there who, like, really do live and die by these reviews. And, like, you know, you just want to be fair.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: You know? You want to be fair. And even if it is fair, do you need to? Just let it go. Right?

Leah: I mean, you know, I think so, Nick. But I'm very happy that this is the side that you're coming down on.

Nick: Yeah, I guess I'm just in a Leah Bonnema mood today. I'm just feeling, like, really charitable and be like, just let—let it go. Let it go. Nothing matters.

Leah: [laughs] It is really a lot ...

Nick: [laughs] Except salmon. And the number of salmon entrees.

Leah: Yeah, that one I can't hold on. But a lot of things, it's just so much easier to let it go.

Nick: Yeah. No, you're rubbing off on me, Leah. So congratulations.

Leah: Oh, I'm delighted!

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness!

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is a little complicated. So let me walk everybody through this. There are text messages. There's background to know. And so let's begin. So here's the background. So Andrew is a friend of mine. And Andrew has a stepmother—let's call her Lisa. And Andrew's parents are now deceased, and Lisa is now gonna be remarried. Okay? So Lisa? Going to be remarried. And Andrew has agreed to walk Lisa down the aisle, and so Andrew is going to fly up the morning of the wedding and then probably return the following day. And the wedding is back where Andrew grew up. So, like, there's a little travel required. Okay.

Nick: And an important detail is that Andrew does not particularly like Lisa.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I think that's a kind of important detail. Now he's agreed to walk her down the aisle and, like, there's a family connection there because this was like the stepmother, but does not particularly care for Lisa. Okay. So now we have—the wedding is coming up, and Lisa has just texted Andrew the following. Quote, "Don't mean to be a pain, but wondering if you've made travel arrangements yet, and if so, your itinerary. The rehearsal is scheduled for 2:00 to 5:00 pm the day before our wedding, and we are also planning on having the rehearsal dinner afterwards around 6:00 pm."

Nick: So then Andrew replies to this text message, quote, "I plan on arriving the day of the wedding, as I previously said. What time is the ceremony?" So then Lisa writes, quote, "I don't recall you ever saying you wouldn't be coming until the day of the wedding, so never mind, Andrew. You don't need to come." So then Andrew texts me this screenshot, and then has the following questions for us. Quote, "Am I uninvited to the wedding? Or just the rehearsal? I do not want to go to the wedding."

Nick: So Leah, we have some assignments here. The first question is: What does this mean? Was Andrew uninvited to this wedding or just the rehearsal? And Andrew wants to get out of this. Andrew does not want to go. So what is the response Andrew can give to help him get out of this?

Leah: So when I read the text messages, it seemed to me that he was uninvited to the wedding.

Nick: Okay. Okay. Not just the rehearsal. So her response to this was, like, so extreme. Like, "Nevermind, then. If you're not gonna come up the day before, never mind. You have to be at the rehearsal in order to know how to walk me down an aisle."

Leah: Well, because if I—if I'm telling you, "Hey, remember we already talked about this. I'm coming the day of." So I'm not—I'm already not coming to the rehearsal dinner.

Nick: Right.

Leah: So you, why would you want to invite me if I'm not coming?

Nick: I see.

Leah: I would say words like, "Okay, that's fine if you can't make it." I wouldn't say, "You're uninvited," because you're not coming.

Nick: Okay. Because I'm already not coming to the rehearsal, so that doesn't need to be discussed. That's already settled.

Leah: We've already ...

Nick: And so the only thing that we would be discussing now is the actual wedding. And so I'm saying, "Don't come."

Leah: That's what it seems to me.

Nick: And because that's the only thing we're discussing, the "don't come" refers to the wedding.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Interesting!

Leah: That's what my take would be.

Nick: Now apparently, Lisa is the sort of person who might change her mind easily. And so apparently Andrew doesn't want that to happen. Andrew is delighted if he's uninvited to the wedding. So what is the response he can give to this text message which sort of like, won't give her an opportunity? Because, like, he doesn't want to be indignant about it and be like, "Oh, well then fine, then," in which case she might be like, "Oh, no! No, no, I—you misunderstood. No, you're invited to the wedding, of course." So he doesn't want to open up that box.

Leah: I mean, I feel like I would say, "Totally understand that you need the person who's walking you down the aisle to come to the rehearsal dinner, but as I mentioned previously, I'm not available. Totally fine that you need to get somebody else. No worries. XOXO."

Nick: [laughs] No. But that would open up the response, "No problem skipping the rehearsal dinner. Just come to the wedding." And Andrew's trying to be like, "Oh, no, I don't want to go to the wedding."

Leah: Well, I think we're gonna need to pull a Nick, we're gonna need to pull out Nick's advice here because I don't know how to back out of a wedding, that you're walking somebody down the aisle.

Nick: [laughs] So yeah, I mean, that—that actually is a very important point, which is like, you have agreed to do this. And so, like, you should do that even if you don't want to because you did say you were gonna do that. And, like, that's not just like, "Oh, I said I was gonna go to your wedding." That's another level because now you are in the wedding. You are a featured player. You get entrance applause. I mean, like, that's a whole other level. But, like, that's—we were not asked whether or not this was good etiquette or not. We were just asked to solve the problem of how do we get out of a wedding with good etiquette, I guess. Or with minimal etiquette damage, I guess? I guess that's really the question.

Nick: So what I told Andrew was just write back, "Okay." Because that would acknowledge that you've seen the message and it would allow ambiguity to reign. And you could interpret that as, like, "Oh, I'm not invited, so I'm just gonna cancel my flight." And if the response a couple days later is like, "When is your flight arriving?" You can be like, "Oh, I thought I wasn't invited. I canceled all my flights." So, like, that would open up the opportunity for you to be like, "Oh, I'm not coming." So I said, "Okay."

Leah: I guess that seems like the most—I mean ...

Nick: It's not great.

Leah: But the thing is, like, do we want to leave this person with nobody walking them down the aisle and no time to find somebody new?

Nick: So in advance of our chat today, I actually followed up this morning and I asked, like, "Hey, what did you end up responding?" And he said, "I didn't respond." So he actually didn't respond at all. He just left it hanging. And then apparently Lisa, right after that exchange, that text exchange, Lisa called her friend Tanya about this. And then a third friend just texted Andrew about that conversation and says quote, "Hi, Andrew. Lisa called Tanya and told her that her sister is going to give her away because you won't be coming to the wedding." And so yes, Andrew was not invited. He was disinvited. He was disinvited to this wedding.

Leah: That's what I thought it was, that he was disinvited.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess I read it that way. I just didn't want to believe that because that's wild. I mean, that's pretty wild.

Leah: Well, the thing is that Andrew did say, "I can only be there for the day of the wedding," and clearly Lisa, either on purpose forgot it or forgot it.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, but regardless, like, is it not good enough for you to actually be there at my wedding? Is it so crucial that you have to be there the day before, take it or leave it? It feels like Lisa's response should have just been like, "Okay, so sorry you can't come to the rehearsal. No problem. Can't wait to see you at the wedding." I mean, like, that would have been the response.

Leah: Well, I feel like it worked out for Andrew, her not having an appropriate response because now he doesn't have to go and he never wanted to.

Nick: Yeah. No, he wins. Although it has dawned on me, I wonder if she didn't want him to come either.

Leah: Literally, I was thinking I think she wanted somebody else to walk her down the aisle. So ...

Nick: Yeah. I wonder if both of them were actually hoping each other would cancel on them, and both of them actually took advantage of this, like, situation to both get what they wanted.

Leah: That's why I feel like she came in with, "Have you already booked your flights?"

Nick: Mmm!

Leah: Because if he already had, then she wasn't gonna do it. But if he hadn't ...

Nick: Oh!

Leah: Then she was gonna be like, find a way to boot him.

Nick: Oh, interesting. Okay. And she remembered that he had booked flights for the day of, and so she tried to trap him into that conversation because—oh, interesting! Because yeah, if he was just like, "Oh, I haven't booked them yet. When should I be there?" Then she'd be like, "Oh, no!"

Leah: Stuck.

Nick: "He'll accommodate my schedule." But once he was locked in with his plans, then she could use that to her advantage. Oh, sneaky!

Leah: I am glad, though, that Lisa has someone to walk her down the aisle, because I would hate for it to be an ambiguity. Nobody knows. So I feel like I wanted her to have someone to walk her down the aisle.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: And I'm happy that Andrew got out of it.

Nick: Yes. I guess everybody got what they wanted, I think, in the end. Yeah, I guess did any etiquette crime happen here? Because I feel like everybody manipulated everybody else.

Leah: [laughs] So the whole thing just feels uncomfortable. The whole thing feels very uncomfortable.

Nick: Super uncomfortable. Very comfortable. But I mean, I did actually follow up with Andrew, and I was sort of like, "So is it okay if we talk about this on the show?" And he's like, "Oh, yeah. Go for it. I'm never gonna talk to this woman again." So I guess he's not upset about this relationship ending over this. And then I did ask, like, "Oh, are you gonna send a gift?" And he's like, "Oh, I think I might send her an etiquette book."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So a little passive-aggressive, but I like it. [laughs]

Leah: I think the only way I would have felt bad if—like, if it was just that Lisa is just this, like—you know, just wanted somebody there with her, and then was devastated and then—but I don't think that kind of person would react that kind of way and be like, "Oh. Well, you're uninvited."

Nick: No, no. No. Yeah, Lisa's not a sympathetic figure here.

Leah: Yeah. That's why for our listeners, I want you to know, Nick and I would be very sympathetic if we were like, somebody just didn't have somebody. But she's presenting herself as, like, a ...

Nick: Yeah. And I think she didn't want Andrew there, and she got what she wanted. And so I guess harmony has been restored to the universe.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So our next question is quote, "Is it rude to only have bar soap in the bathroom for guests? I am a bar person, and my spouse feels like we should also have pump soap for guests."

Leah: A) I want to say, I don't think any—any soap is rude. It's personal preference.

Nick: Yes. And to clarify, this question came from our private Facebook group—which you can join—and a lot of people had a lot of different thoughts. And to clarify also, we're talking about at the sink. We're not talking about in the shower, if that matters.

Leah: I never put it visually into the shower, so ...

Nick: Oh, you didn't?

Leah: No.

Nick: Oh, because my first thought when we're talking about soap was in the shower. That was my first thought. I don't know why.

Leah: I assume people are bringing their own soaps to the shower.

Nick: Like, if I'm a house guest in your house, I gotta bring my own soap?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: You don't provide this for guests?

Leah: No.

Nick: I mean, can I use your soap?

Leah: No.

Nick: Oh, wow. Okay. Because you have, like, special soap?

Leah: No, I just don't share soap with people.

Nick: Like, do you do bar soap or use liquid soap?

Leah: Bar soap.

Nick: Okay. All right. So bar soap does feel a little more intimate in the shower, I guess, than liquid.

Leah: Bar soap is more into—if I had liquid soap, feel free. Get in there. But, like ...

Nick: Okay, so it's the bar soap that you're drawing this hard line.

Leah: Yeah, I am. Also, if you didn't have soap and you said, "Leah, do you have a bar of soap?" I'll rustle you up a bar of soap. I just didn't know that people weren't traveling with soap, because I have specific soap. I travel with it everywhere. It's in all of my bags.

Nick: Interesting. I typically rely on the kindness of hotels and strangers for soap, I guess.

Leah: Well, hotels have soap.

Nick: Yeah. I don't typically travel with my own soap, just because there's only so many liquids I can bring. So I'm happy to roll the dice on, like, body wash.

Leah: All right. Well, I'm happy to know this because I wouldn't want people to feel untaken care of. I mean, I always have extra soap, but I wouldn't think that you would need soap.

Nick: Okay, but back ...

Leah: But if you needed soap, I'm happy to give it to you.

Nick: Okay. All right. So it's not a soap-free existence when I'm in your house as a guest.

Leah: And obviously if I had a second bathroom ...

Nick: Well, sure.

Leah: ... for guests, there would be soap in it.

Nick: It would be a whole different story.

Leah: It'd be a whole different story. It would—I would have everything available. But if you're coming into my shower, I'm gonna assume you have that little bag that you carry when you travel in and there's gonna be soap and your face wash.

Nick: So back to the sink, though. Bar soap, liquid soap. You're agnostic.

Leah: I'm not agnostic. A bar of soap feels more intimate.

Nick: Okay. Yeah, I could see that. Yeah. It's—there's more evidence that other people have touched it.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Right. The fiction that this soap is mine and mine alone, it's harder to maintain.

Leah: And I feel like that could be a nice personal effect. Like is your—your bar of soap shaped like a Christmas tree or a dog? You know, that's fun! And then sometimes you want more of like a sterilizing feeling where it's just like a pump. You know what I mean?

Nick: Mm-hmm.

Leah: And so I feel like there are pluses and minuses to either one. And I just want people to feel—I want to support soap choices because it's so much better than no soap.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, no soap is not on the table here. No. But I will say, though, about soap in shapes. You mentioned Christmas trees. There is a world in which guest soaps that often come in shapes—I'm thinking about, like, actually shells that were in my Grandma Peg's bathroom—you weren't supposed to use those.

Leah: Yeah, but they're not in the soap dish. They're in, like, a soap bowl.

Nick: Soap bowl versus soap dish? What am I supposed to do with that?

Leah: Well, my grandma had those too, but they were separate from the bowl—the soap that was in the dish.

Nick: I mean, I'm thinking Grandma Peggy had a bowl and there was, like, the shells. And they were, like, blue with, like, some stripe-y, like, white stripes. You know, if you could picture this.

Leah: My Nana had roses, little roses.

Nick: I feel like there might have been roses mixed in. Yeah. And it was just very clear, like, oh, those are not for actual usage. But you're saying that there could be a separate dish that's closer to the sink and it's more obvious that that bar—and I guess it's more of a bar.

Leah: Yeah, this is more of a bar. There's like, a decorative soap that I recognize. We're not using that.

Nick: Yeah. If it's in a fun shape, no touching.

Leah: But if there—it's in the soap dish and it's already been used, that that's the soap we're using.

Nick: Right. I guess why do we have soap we're not allowed to use? I feel like that's rude.

Leah: I think it's because it's for scents.

Nick: Oh, it's more just like a scenting thing in the room.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Oh, interesting. Okay. I think there's better ways to achieve that.

Leah: I just also, part of me is, like, it feels somehow more clean to have pump soap, but I know that that's not ...

Nick: I actually did look into some research. They have studied whether or not, like, bars of soap do, like, transmit disease or—it doesn't. They, like, put, like, diseases on a bar of soap and made 40 people, like, wash their hands with it. And it was like, it's fine. So I think hygiene wise, I think it's both the same or similar. I don't need letters, audience. All right? I don't need letters. But I think it's similar.

Leah: No. I also think it's similar. It's just in people's minds that they're—but I also think when we just have a bar, we're using less plastic.

Nick: True. As long as we're going through the whole bar. I think an issue in hotels is everybody gets a fresh bar and then all we're throwing away, like, bars that have only been used once or twice and, like, that's a waste.

Leah: I assume you're just gonna go through the whole thing. What are you flipping out your soap every time a different person comes over?

Nick: I mean, I guess that's a possibility. I mean, that's wasteful.

Leah: No, I think that the idea that the bar is less clean is just in our minds was what I was gonna say. But I get the idea that you could see that and feel like it was—so I think either is fine.

Nick: Yes. Although I think in my household I'm a liquid soap person, so I want liquid soap where I go. I kind of prefer that. So ...

Leah: Nick, we also have liquid soap. I just want to support the bars.

Nick: Okay. I mean, all right, you want to support all soap choices. No, you're very nice with that.

Leah: So I do think it's nice that there's less plastic with a bar of soap.

Nick: That's true. Yes. I mean, I do get, like, the refillable things of my soap, but yeah, it still comes in plastic. Yeah, that's true. That's true. I mean, what we really should be doing is making our own soap. So let's just get some lye.

Leah: I wish we had that third option. Why did our letter-writer not include, "Or should we be making our own soap?" Because obviously that's the answer.

Nick: And then you actually make, like, soap buttons which are like teeny tiny, like, Hershey Kiss-size soaps that are, like, one-time use. And then everybody uses, like, a little soap button. That's fun.

Leah: Maybe that's our thing.

Nick: Why are we—we already have a thing, Leah. Why do we need more things?

Leah: Why don't we make homemade soap buttons?

Nick: Okay. And then we sell these.

Leah: Yes, this along with the signage.

Nick: At the farmer's market? Where is this happening?

Leah: Yes, we're going to a farmer's market. Online. This and the signage for lines. These are our two things.

Nick: Okay. All right. These are our new things. So listeners, thank you for these great questions, and if there's any crafts that you would like us to make and sell at a farmers market or on Etsy, let us know. And if you have questions about anything, also let us know. You can let us know through our website WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently, or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, Would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: Nick, I want you to get to go first.

Nick: Okay, happy to. So for me, I would like to vent.

Leah: Oh!

Nick: And so I was recently flying from San Francisco back to New York, and I'm boarding the aircraft, and I'm coming down the aisle. And wouldn't you know, there was a gentleman in my seat.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so I was like, okay, you know, numbers are hard. What is A? What is B? You know, we sometimes have those days. And so I said to the gentleman, like, "Oh, I believe I have the aisle." And so what he says is, "Oh, do you prefer the aisle?" And I say, "I do."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] And I just smiled and I stood there, and he was expecting there to be more of a conversation about this. And I was like, no, no. No, this is not a negotiation. I prefer the aisle seat, and that is the seat I reserved a long time ago, and that's the seat I will sit in. And so then he, like, huffed, and then, like, he slid over to the window seat. Okay. And so I thought, like, oh, this will be kind of a fun flight.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Like, so I, like, settle in. And then he's, like, poking around the seat. And we're in an exit row, so it's the exit row that's, like, kind of in the middle of the plane, over the wing. And so, like, there are seats in front of you, and there's actually seats behind you because there's also an exit behind us. And so our seats don't recline. And the tray table's in your seat. And for me, daytime flight, my height, I don't need to recline. Like, it makes no difference in my life. So I'm happy to book that seat. And so he is poking around, and he's trying to recline the seat, and it's not working, and he's, like, getting upset about it.

Nick: And then he gets on the phone and calls his wife and starts complaining to her about everything that's wrong with this flight and this airline and, like, everything that's going wrong. And I'm trying to ignore all of this, and it was just like, oh, can we just, like, get on with our day? And so then he starts to interrogate me about why everything is the way it is. Like, I designed this plane. Like, I am responsible for the seat design here. And so he's asking me, like, why doesn't the seat recline? Why are the seats so narrow because of the tray table? Like, why is all this happening?

Nick: And so I calmly explained to him, like, "Oh, sir, we're in an exit row. And so it's very important to create as much space for passengers as possible during an exit. And which is why all of these things are the way they are." And then I add, "If you're unhappy here, I'm sure there'll be somebody else in the plane who would be happy to switch with you." And I was hoping, like, oh, please take advantage of that because, like, that'll be win-win for everybody.

Nick: So then he wants to use the restroom before the flight, and he makes it very known that he's annoyed with me that I'm in the aisle seat and he wanted the aisle seat. And, like, he just wants me to know that, like, it's my fault that I am in the aisle seat that I reserved. And, like, oh, wouldn't it have been better if I gave him the seat? And so, like, he goes into the bathroom, and I'm about to, like, take my seat again because, like, I stood up into the aisle to, like, let him out. And the woman behind me says, like, "Excuse me?" And I'm like, "What now?"

Leah: Oh, no.

Nick: Who else is bothering me on this flight? Like, what—what more? I have nothing else to give. And she says, like, "Excuse me, are you in customer service? You have the most beautiful voice."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And I thought, oh, isn't that, like, how nice. But, oh, isn't that interesting? Like, the way I was speaking to this person was noted by this other passenger. And so I just said something along the lines of, like, "Oh, this is not my first time at this rodeo, and I'm sure we're gonna have more trouble in this flight. Stay tuned." And she laughed. And so that was kind of nice. But I—yeah. So, like, I would like to vent about this gentleman because, like, it's not my problem you're unhappy. And I do appreciate, though, that my tone, which, you know, has been honed, was recognized.

Leah: Yeah. Because you know what she's really thinking is, "I can't believe how well you managed that absolute monster."

Nick: [laughs] Yes. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, he was an animal beast. I mean, because that phone call with his wife was so loud. I mean, everybody on the plane could hear this. So yeah, that's my vent.

Leah: I love that he obviously thought you were gonna switch seats when you got there. "Do you prefer the aisle seat?" "Yeah, it's my seat." And Nick's like, "Nope."

Nick: No, I wish I was more famous and that he knew who I was and would know that, like, "Oh, that's Nick Leighton. I have no chance here."

Leah: Well, hopefully one of his friends is listening and passes it on.

Nick: And so you, Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: You know, I'm gonna vent, Nick.

Nick: Okay, what's happened?

Leah: Well, why I'm venting about this—because I've really worked hard on letting things go, which has not been too segment at all.

Nick: Too well. Too well, I would say. It is disappointing that you are being so chill Aand nothing bothers you anymore because, like, that's—if we don't have—like, I'm happy to hold up the fort here and just, like, just vent. I got plenty left. I got a whole archive. You know, maybe it's just the Nick vents segment and, like, you just listen. So I'm delighted. I'm delighted that something's happened.

Leah: And I would have been able to let this go, except the memory of this person's facial expression. You know when you're just like, "Ugh!"

Nick: Oh!

Leah: So I am at a rest stop.

Nick: Go on.

Leah: And I always hold the door for people. And I've noticed that on rest stops, there's a lot of door holding. Everybody's lovely. "Hey!"

Nick: Interesting.

Leah: Yeah. It's a great time because we're all—we're all taking a reprieve.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: We're having a moment with a soda or a coffee. A bathroom break. We're washing our hands.

Nick: Yeah. We're resting at a stop.

Leah: It's joyous.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So da, da, da. I'm in a lovely, lovely mood.

Nick: You're skipping.

Leah: I'm skipping with glee. Mary Poppins is playing in my head. So ...

Nick: Can you skip any other way? Can you skip angrily?

Leah: I think you could skip sort of begrudgingly, like someone's forcing you to skip. Ugh! You know?

Nick: Involuntary skipping. Okay.

Leah: You just forced skip.

Nick: Okay. But that's not this.

Leah: That's not this.

Nick: You are delighted. With merriment.

Leah: So I'm exiting the gas station.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Where I've purchased a delightful drink. I'm looking forward to it. I open the door, teenage girl coming towards me in all of her teenageness. And I think, joyful. You know, I remember this time. It's tumultuous and intense. And, you know, I get it.

Nick: All the feelings.

Leah: So I hold the door and I step back. I mean, I'm obviously holding the door. And this young woman looks at me like I work for her. It was the rudest look. Doesn't say thank you, doesn't smile. And then, I mean, it was just like this look of, like, "You, peasant, are in my way. And I don't even like the way you're holding the door." I mean, it was just the meanest look ...

Nick: Wow!

Leah: ... I have received. And I still can see it. I can still see this look. I wanted to, like, get involved. You know what I mean? Like, I was so irritated.

Nick: You're like, "What did you mean by that?"

Leah: "What just happened right now? Why are you angry at me? How is this happening right now? You're at a rest stop. This—you're not the Princess of Wales or whatever."

Nick: Maybe she is some royalty. You don't know.

Leah: No, she most certainly is not. Let me tell you that.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: And if she was royalty ...

Nick: You know, all those hidden princesses.

Leah: She would say thank you. Hidden princesses are saying thank you.

Nick: Well, okay. Yeah, that's a fair point.

Leah: Who do you think you are? Like, the princess of—what is that magical place in Hallmark movies?

Nick: Where are the Frozen people from?

Leah: [laughs] Where are the Frozen people from?

Nick: Elsa. Yeah, wherever Elsa's from.

Leah: But it's like Elsa would be polite, you know? It was just—it was so hard for me to not walk back in following her. I can't even tell you, it took every inch of me to be like, "Hey, you remember what it's like to be a teenager. She's got a fight inside of herself. Let it go." But I wanted to be able to be like, "You have to say thank you, and you can't look at people that way."

Nick: I mean, that would be good life advice for her that would serve her well because yeah, I mean, to walk through doors and making poopy faces.

Leah: It was such a poopy face, Nick. It was such a poopy face. I wish I could—you know, because you'll hold the door for people, and they'll be like, "Ugh." And they'll act like—but it was—it was more. It was—it was so rude!

Nick: Yeah, it definitely felt directed and targeted.

Leah: It was so targeted. I just wanted to yell through the door, "I hate your face!"

Nick: [laughs] Well, if you did do that, then that would actually justify her attitude, so you can't do that.

Leah: I know, but it's like you just wanted to be like—I'm sure—I feel like nobody's telling her that she can't make that face, and that's why she feels entitled to walk around making that face.

Nick: Yeah. Society will catch up with her at some point.

Leah: I mean, do they? Or she's just gonna get, like—she's gonna make a gazillion followers on TikTok with that face.

Nick: Yeah, that's true. That could be her signature. Yeah. Hashtag poopy face.

Leah: Hashtag poopy face. I want to be like, "We're both at the same gas station!" The thing I want to bring up is that you want to—you just want to yell, "Hey!"

Nick: "Knock it off."

Leah: "Stop it with that face." And then my question is: Can I do that?

Nick: Oh. I mean, etiquette is not about what you can do. You certainly can do that. Yes. You do have the capacity to do that.

Leah: I'm gonna think on it.

Nick: Okay. Yeah. Should you, though? No. No is the answer.

Leah: I shouldn't, right? Because I took the high road. I go, "You know what? She's going through something."

Nick: So etiquette would say no, but, you know ...

Leah: But a lot of me thought she needs to be a little rattled.

Nick: Oh, I could imagine you coming at her in a gas station telling her to be polite. I would be rattled.

Leah: "Hey, what's up? I just followed you to the bathroom. Not creepy at all. And I wanted to let you know that when people hold the door for you, you shouldn't look at them like they—you're walking over their faces. Just FYI for the future."

Nick: "FYI. Yeah, just file it away."

Leah: "Have a great day."

Nick: Little pro tip. Yeah.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Well, I'm sorry this happened to you. I would like to say it won't happen again, but I can't make that promise.

Leah: I mean, I'm sure it will. We'll just see how I handle it next time.

Nick: Oh, I'm sure you're gonna really handle it better.

Leah: I handled it perfect. I didn't do anything.

Nick: That's true. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Actually, you did have self control. Yeah. All right, fair enough. So keep that up.

Leah: How am I getting insulted in this, Nick? [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Great. Now you have an event for next week.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: Oh, Nick, a whole world is open to me about knives.

Nick: Oh, yes. Get a penny out.

Leah: Get a penny. I mean, when you said, "What are we sending with it?" I just ...

Nick: I mean, you were never supposed to guess.

Leah: Well, I'm glad you let me guess because we got to see how many options could be wrong.

Nick: And I learned that you will never apologize if you don't mean it.

Leah: No, because then it's dishonest.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, you make that sound so obvious. But I mean, plenty of people would be happy to just apologize insincerely.

Leah: Well, apologize, you know, when you bump—like little things, but not like a big thing. I'm not apologizing. I wasn't wrong.

Nick: Yeah. No, no. They wanted two salmons.

Leah: [laughs] Thank you!

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, we want your questions and your conundrums, big or small. Actually, the smaller, the better. I actually sometimes feel like the smallest, most insignificant conundrums and questions are the most fun. So this week, don't send us your big existential crises. No, no, no. Send us, like, the little things, the questions where, does it matter? Probably not, but, like, we'll weigh in.

Leah: Should we be upset by teenage girls who hurt our feelings?

Nick: No, but it's fun to talk about. So that's your homework, and we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah. It's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do, but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So I want to say a huge, like, bottom of my heart, deepest of deepest thank yous to all of our Wolves fam who got my audiobook.

Nick: Oh, yes! Holiday Breakdown, available on Amazon and Audible.

Leah: And also I'd re-edited the book, and so some of our listeners just got the book for the first time, and people left the nicest reviews, and it meant the whole entire world to me. And I don't know what I would do without you guys.

Nick: Oh, that's very nice.

Leah: Thank you so much.

Nick: And for me, I want to read this nice review we just got, and it's quote, "There are two kinds of people in my life: People who want podcast recommendations and people who don't know they want podcast recommendations. Regardless, this show always makes the list. I usually share the story about the person who wrote in because a stranger accidentally drank from her wine glass. You'll have to listen to find out what happened, but it was bonkers! And that story always gets a good reaction. This is an amazing podcast, and Nick and Leah are two of the most delightful people on planet Earth. I wouldn't even complain if they drank out of my wine glass. Nick would never, and Leah would get hives worrying that she might."

Leah: Yeah, I would too. I really would. [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So that's a wonderful review. Thank you for leaving it. And you out there, we love reviews. Hint, hint, hint, hint. So please leave us some reviews and thank you!

Leah: Thank you, that was so nice!