Buttering Bread Properly, Going on First Dates, Ringing Bells for Service, and More

Nick: Do you butter too much bread? Do you demand other people pay for dinner? Do you forget you're not at home when seeing live theater? Were you raised by wolves? Let's find out!

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Were you raised by wolves?

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And let's just get right down to it with our amuse bouche.

Leah: Let's get in it!

Nick: So for today's amuse-bouche, I want to talk about bread.

Leah: It's a beautiful, beautiful world.

Nick: And as I was thinking about this, there is so much to say about bread. We could do an entire season talking about bread.

Leah: We could do a season on bread.

Nick: The show could just be called Were You Raised By Bread?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And I would be very interested. Like, I would listen to that podcast. So for today, though, I want to take you to a fancy-schmancy dinner party. Leah, what are you gonna wear?

Leah: Oh, I would have—I would have a little breakdown because I just don't have fancy schmancy.

Nick: Not important for this question.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so you're at a fancy-schmancy dinner, though. And you're seated, and you have a bread plate, and there is a big, lovely, enormous crunchy roll. And you have a little knife, and a little distance away there's a ramekin of butter. Leah, would you like a little bread and butter?

Leah: Yes. Obviously, everybody knows I don't eat wheat, but I'm gonna just go. "Yes."

Nick: [laughs] And so Leah, what is your technique?

Leah: What I do ...

Nick: Uh-huh?

Leah: ... is I would—I have a roll?

Nick: You have a roll.

Leah: I would tear my roll in half. I'm just gonna say what I would do and then we can take it apart.

Nick: Say what you'd do.

Leah: And this is honestly what I would do. I would tear it apart, and then I would take my butter knife and I would ramekin it, and then I would do half of the roll.

Nick: Okay, so we're taking butter from the ramekin, putting it on half the roll.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Maybe I should be putting it on my plate and then doing half the roll.

Nick: So the first thing to note is this is a trick question, because at a fancy-schmancy dinner you probably actually wouldn't have bread and butter. Bread and butter is typically not served at formal meals. Now this is not necessarily true anymore. You know, the idea of what formal is has changed. There was a time when black tie was considered informal. So, you know, things change. And bread is great. Like, who doesn't love bread and butter? But it is true that a very formal meal you would not actually have, like, bread and butter, but for the purposes of this question, we do have bread and butter and how do you eat it? So yes, the idea is that the communal butter needs to stay communal, so we do not want to sully it in any way. It is a shared resource.

Nick: And so you would want to take the butter from the communal butter to your plate and turn it into personal butter. You need to make the conversion between communal to personal. We do not go from communal directly to your food. It's like an artist, an artist's palette. You don't take the paint out of the tube and go right on the canvas. You gotta take the paint on the tube and put it on the palette, and then we take the brush and then we take the paint and we paint the picture. Toast is your canvas.

Nick: So let's talk about the rule when it comes to the bread part. The general rule when it comes to bread is that you never cut it with a knife. So it's good that you were ripping.

Leah: I'm a ripper.

Nick: And the rule is that you only break off a little piece of the bread you're about to eat in either one or two bites. So the idea is that you just prepare the little bite with the butter or the jam or the Nutella or whatever it is as you're eating it and as you go along. You do not prepare the full thing all at once.

Leah: I nailed that part.

Nick: Well, I do believe I heard you say you were gonna butter half the roll.

Leah: Yeah, that's two bites.

Nick: That's—okay. [laughs] All right. All right. You found—you found an exception.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Okay. And this goes for scones. This goes for croissants. This goes for, like, most things. And you also don't eat the roll like it's an apple. So we also don't want to do that, just to make sure that we're clear on that.

Leah: But if I saw somebody doing that, I would enjoy it immensely.

Nick: Oh, it's—oh, a lot of bad etiquette is delightful to watch happen, but we still don't want to do it.

Leah: I'd be like, that person loves rolls.

Nick: But there are exceptions, of course. So, like, bagels, you know, obviously use a knife on a bagel. And ideally a bagel would come to you precut. Like, there's nothing more annoying than, like, dining somewhere and you order, like, the bagel and, like, it's just a whole bagel. And you have to then use your knife, which is never sharp enough, and then you're gonna, like, injure yourself. Like, no good will come of this. But if you do get a whole bagel yes, use a knife on it. This is an exception. Now what about something hot, though? We have, like, lovely hot biscuits right out of the oven.

Leah: Oh, yeah. And you want that butter to melt on the whole thing.

Nick: And you want that butter to melt. What are you supposed to do?

Leah: You're gonna butter the whole thing.

Nick: Is that allowed?

Leah: I'm gonna say I don't want to live in a world where it's not allowed to butter something when it's hot.

Nick: So Miss Manners has weighed on this question, and she says, quote, "Amateurs fail to understand that knowing the rules is not sufficient. As in the legal profession, a judge must also know how to weigh the circumstances and consequences of applying the rules. A polite person may sometimes be forced to choose between conflicting etiquette rules, in which case the correct one is the one that least inconveniences others. So it is true that bread should be buttered in bite-sized pieces, but if you wanted your bread buttered while it was warm, you were right to do it yourself rather than call over the waiter as you finished each bite and send the next bit of bread back to the kitchen to be reheated."

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So yes, if it is a hot thing where the idea of the melted butter into it is really gonna enhance your enjoyment, then have at it.

Leah: Thank goodness!

Nick: Right? I mean, etiquette can be sensible. It's not just arbitrary.

Leah: We're not letting warm bread go to waste.

Nick: No, this is not a world I want to live in.

Leah: No!

Nick: What an insane thing. Right. It would be insane if the rule was, oh, you have to deprive yourself of this enjoyment.

Leah: Insane.

Nick: Totally insane.

Leah: I also do think that if I was at a table where we all were sharing the same butter, which doesn't really happen to me, that's—I would never go back in with my knife.

Nick: Well, here's the thing, though. You probably could because your knife will never touch bread that has been in your mouth because you're only ripping bread off and buttering pure bread.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: That has never been sullied.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Because you're not taking bites of bread and putting it back and then buttering that same bite.

Leah: Or licking the—I would never lick a knife.

Nick: [laughs] Licking the knife was not on my list.

Leah: We should put it on there.

Nick: I mean, it should be on there. So yes, that's why if there was no knife that went with that ramekin and everybody had to use their own personal butter knife, as long as you're mindful of not getting your crumbs into the main butter, you know, as long as there's not like a crumb problem, you're not gonna get mouth saliva into that ramekin because you're only buttering as you go along. And so this actually solves that problem, which is another reason why we do this.

Leah: Oh, good. So either way works.

Nick: Now let's talk about toast. This is another area where there are some exceptions available.

Leah: I feel like I would file toast under the warm roll category.

Nick: Well, even if the toast is not warm, because often when we're having toast at breakfast, like, I'm not ripping off a little piece of toast and then putting it in my mouth. Like, you kind of eat the whole piece of toast and you, like, take a bite and you might set the toast down and, like, that's how we eat toast. And it's sort of like, that's fine. But to be elegant about it, you would prepare just the section you're about to bite with butter and jam as you go along. It is considered inelegant to prepare the entire surface area all at once. So the same idea of sort of preparing as you go along does sort of still apply in a toast circumstance.

Leah: I just realized that I could name my next comedy album Inelegantbecause ...

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I think that that is—all of my favorite things are inelegant. I would want to do the whole toast because then it melts. Like, your toast is warm, and then the butter would melt into the little toast crevices.

Nick: Well, as we've established, if the whole thing is hot and the melted butter is gonna be a factor here, then have at it. Butter the whole thing.

Leah: And I'm not eating not warm toast because that's a sandwich.

Nick: Well, but very often toast just comes sort of room temperature, in which case you're not gonna get a melting effect. Leah is now making a face as if, like, she's never heard of this.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] I feel like I've been in many dining experiences where my toast is not piping hot. It's not hot enough to melt butter. Am I doing it wrong? Am I going to the wrong places?

Leah: I'm sorry.

Nick: Okay. I mean, I really gotta, like, reevaluate my life and my choices.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Wow. So that's basically like bread in a nutshell. Now I did read this fun story about Emily Post. And Peggy Post, her great granddaughter, tells a story in one of her books where Emily was dining with a group of, quote, "Notable ladies."

Leah: Hmm!

Nick: And at this meal, at the end of the meal, one of the ladies turned to Emily and was like, "Why Mrs. Post, do you know that you've been eating from my bread plate the entire meal?" And apparently Emily said, "Well, isn't that just like me?" And Peggy Post tells the story as an illustration of, like, not responding to rude things with more rudeness. And that's true. It's pretty rude to, like, correct people's manners. But I read this and I'm like, "Emily, what are you doing eating from the wrong bread plate? Like, do you not know that the bread plate's on the left? Like, if you don't know this rule, like, what hope is there for the rest of us?"

Leah: Also, I think we can all put that in our pocket for when we do something silly. We're like, "Oh, Emily Post ate from the wrong plate and it's Emily Post!"

Nick: "Oh, it's just like me." Yes, but it's just like Emily, really it's not that hard. Like, that's such a basic rule. And if you don't know that, like, I don't—what do we do with this? What do we do with this information?

Leah: Yeah, but sometimes you get swept up in the moment. Maybe a hot conversation started, and then ...

Nick: Oh, I don't believe Emily Post ever got swept up in anything.

Leah: Well, clearly she did.

Nick: [laughs] Yeah. Who are these notable ladies? And what was this meal?

Leah: They must be very notable.

Nick: Very notable, where she just got all flustered and just didn't know her right from her left. And which roll is mine? Who can say? Oh, Emily!

Leah: Happens to the best of us.

Nick: If it can happen to her, yeah, none of us are safe.

Leah: I think as a goal, all of our listeners and ...

Nick: Okay?

Leah: ... you and I, Nick, we should all try to drop the, "Oh, isn't that just like me?" at some point during this week.

Nick: [laughs] Okay. I accept your challenge. Yeah. Because it—yeah, it really applies to a lot of things.

Leah: [laughs] It really does. It can work in so many situations.

Nick: Okay, I'm gonna—I'm gonna try this. I'm gonna report back and let you know how it goes.

Leah: I look forward to it.

Nick: Me too.

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to go deep.

Leah: Deep and on a date.

Nick: Deep and on a date. So for today's question of etiquette, I want to talk about going on a first date.

Leah: Ooh!

Nick: Yeah! So I want to talk about, like, through the lens of etiquette. And so the first thing that comes to mind is: who pays? This is, like, the first thing that comes to mind when we talk about first dates.

Leah: In my mind, it's whoever did the inviting.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think in etiquette world, generally speaking, whoever issues the invitation is the host. Yes, I think that is generally sort of like true. Now I think in a lot of first dates, though, who the host is is actually a little more vague or it's more casual. Like, let's say this is Tinder and it's like, "Hey, you know, maybe we should grab a drink sometime?" "Oh, that would be fun!" "Oh, what are you doing Saturday?" "Oh, maybe like 2:00?" And so in that exchange, like, is that really a host-guest relationship?

Leah: You could get the first round. I could get the second round.

Nick: Right. So I feel like that is a nice way to do it. I am aware that there are a lot of people who do decide to do a full dinner as a first date, which I mean, do it if you want. I think the idea of being stuck with somebody for 90 minutes or two hours or however long this dining experience is and you don't know them that well and, like, oh, could that be torture? Not a great idea. So I think, like, drinks, coffee, museum, walk in the park, maybe better idea. But yes, I think you get the first round. I get the second round. That's nice.

Leah: I think that everybody likes to be treated.

Nick: Sure.

Leah: It's a nice feeling to have somebody treat you.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then I think also, when I was still going out on first dates, I was always prepared to pay for half.

Nick: Yes, I think it is important to not have the expectation that you're being treated. I think it is nice to offer to pay half if somebody offers. And to do that dance, which is like, "Oh, are you sure? Oh, like, no, allow me. Oh no, really, I've got it." I think just to sit there with your hands clasped as the check arrives and be like, "Well clearly, you're gonna be paying for this." That's not great.

Leah: No, that's rude.

Nick: And I actually was reading that there's a divorce lawyer who has weighed in on this topic, and he says that if someone does that, that's a red flag because that's just a red flag. And you've learned a lot of information for $20 or $30 or $40 that will save you thousands of dollars in alimony later on.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So if somebody just, like, is entitled to have the meal paid for, like, oh, this is good to know.

Leah: Yeah. Yes.

Nick: And it needs to be a sincere, like, "Oh, I actually do want to pay half." It can't be like a half, like, pretend to reach sort of thing.

Leah: Oh no. I mean—I mean mean it.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: And then if somebody insists and you're comfortable with it, "Okay, Thank you so much. I'm getting next time," or whatever.

Nick: Yeah. Getting the next time is nice or, like, "Oh, there's a great gelateria around the corner. Like, let me buy some ice cream," or, like, whatever it is. Now there are people that do feel very strongly that, like, a certain person on the date should pay. So, like, if you feel that that, oh, the man should always pay on the first date, or the man should pay for every date until we're exclusive, or whatever it is that you feel, then you should feel that and that's fine, because it's very important for you to be dating somebody who is on the same page as you.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: If you're on a date with somebody who is not on that page, well then that's great information. And now you know something. And the whole point of dating is to know who you click with. And so if you want somebody to always pay and that's your expectation and they don't, well, then asked and answered.

Leah: I think that's such a great point.

Nick: So money aside, the next thing on my list is: put your phone away.

Leah: Yeah, put your phone away.

Nick: Just put your phone away. Yeah. Would you please do that? And etiquette 2.0: don't pull your phone out at any point while you're with them on the date. Wait until you have departed. Because we have gotten questions from listeners—which were more just vents—where people went on a first date and they thought it went well, and then the person whips out their phone and then there's, like, a billion notifications on Tinder on their phone. And that doesn't feel nice because it's sort of like, oh, in your pocket, you know, your phone's been dating all these other people while we've been having drinks.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And, like, that doesn't—like, it's not good optics. Like, it's just one of those things that we want to pretend is not happening, like so much of etiquette. And so just like, don't pull out your phone at any point.

Leah: I like that very much.

Nick: Yeah, I think it's just a nice courtesy.

Leah: Wait until you're in a relationship, and then you can just be at the table together both on your phones entirely.

Nick: Right. Not talking at a nice meal. Yes. Welcome to marriage.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So yeah, stuff to look forward to. But yes, don't whip out your phone. And I would also say do not whip out your phone to check something on Wikipedia, or in reference to a conversation. Just really actually hold it all, because it just—things change when that device hits the table and it's just—it's not good. You're trying to connect with somebody who is live in front of you and the phone just makes that harder.

Leah: Sometimes it's hard not to Google something if you're both talking about a movie and you can't think of the name of the actor. And then it's like a—it's like a brain worm where you're both like, "Ah, Steven Seagal!" You know what I mean? I just can't think of it.

Nick: I mean, I guess if you both want to whip out the Google, I mean, okay. I'm not there. I don't care. It doesn't affect my life.

Leah: Then you could go, "Should we Google it?" And then you Google it and they say, "Give me the first letter." And you give them the S, and then they get Steven Seagal, and then fun and then you put your phone away.

Nick: Okay. I mean, that sounds perfectly charming and lovely. Okay. The other thing to note is just the conversation ball. Have we talked about the conversation ball?

Leah: Throwing it back and forth?

Nick: Yeah, throwing it back and forth. Yeah. So there's a ball of conversation, and a good conversation involves throwing it back and forth. And many people are very bad at this.

Leah: Oh, yes!

Nick: Oh, horrible!

Leah: Whoo!

Nick: And so you just want to be mindful that you have the conversation ball, and you want to gently toss it to the other person. And then they have the conversation ball, and then they toss it back to you. And that is fun. What often happens is someone keeps the conversation ball, or they slam it into the ground.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And then you have to pick up the conversation ball and then, like, say some nice things and then toss it back to them and then they slam it into the ground. So that is not very fun. And on a first date, you're trying to get to know somebody. And so keeping that conversation ball in the air is, like, very important.

Leah: We've all been on dates where you're sitting there and the person just talks at you the entire time.

Nick: Yeah. And you're like, "Oh, this is the most boring talk show with no commercial breaks."

Leah: [laughs] You're like, "I gotta get out of here."

Nick: Right. So that's somebody who's hogging the conversation ball, and that is rude.

Leah: Rude!

Nick: Very rude.

Leah: And I get that people get nervous. So if you get nervous, just be like ...

Nick: Oh, sure.

Leah: I'm just gonna ask—have some questions ready.

Nick: Yes. And that's totally fine. And I think it is important to make people feel comfortable. And there's a lot of reasons why people do hog the conversation ball or slam it down. I just want people to be mindful that there is a conversation ball, and keeping it moving is important.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: And so just keep it moving. Keep it moving.

Leah: And we don't ask people questions to get back to talking about us.

Nick: [laughs] Right. Yeah. "What do you think of me?"

Leah: [laughs] "Did you make a movie last year?" "No." "Oh, I did. Let me talk about it."

Nick: [laughs] Oh. Eww! Although, you know what? This is all very useful information. This is very useful information about a person.

Leah: Yeah. No, it's a learning—you're learning.

Nick: Yeah. And then finally, let's just talk about after the date. I think sometimes dates don't go well and you're like, "I'm good. That was enough for me." And sometimes there'll be no communication afterwards. Like, nobody texts anybody and that's fine. This is fizzled. That's the end of the transaction. Now there will be times when somebody will reach out and be like, "I had a great time, let's do it again sometime." And you don't want to. And you have a choice: do you ghost or do you respond?

Leah: And I think there's a lovely, polite-yet-direct response: "Had such a great time. I'm not feeling it in that way.

Nick: "But I had a great night, and thank you so much." And then we just kind of leave it at that and that's, like, polite, that's direct, it's mature. And I think that's nice.

Leah: I think it is very nice. And I would like to hold space for people who've had such bad experiences with being polite-yet-direct that they are a little gun shy in texting that back, because I have had a lot of girlfriends where they'll say to somebody, "Thanks so much, I had a lovely time with you. I'm not feeling it romantically but, you know, I wish you all the best." And then the person gets so angry, and then the text they send back is, like, so mean that I just want to say I understand why some people really don't want to do it. I do think saying what you said is the—if you have it in you to do that, that's the best way. But if you've had such bad experiences, I've seen some of these texts. They're wild.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would like the default setting to be we don't ghost. I would like that to be the default setting. And then we do need to have space for exceptions to this, where I guess there are times when, like, not responding is maybe the right way to go. And I guess you just have to use your judgment in terms of, like, when that is appropriate based on your needs.

Leah: Or also if you are on a date with them and they were—it was like a ...

Nick: Well, if you're on a date with them and you're like, "Oh, this person might actually send a wild text like this and, like, I need to set a boundary," then yeah, I feel like ghosting—that actually is one of the occasions when ghosting is allowed.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Have at it then. But I think if you had a perfectly nice date but just weren't into it and, like, you could just send a nice polite-yet-direct, like, "Oh, no thank you," that would be my preference if possible.

Leah: Yes. Absolutely agree.

Nick: But yes, people get wild on texts. People get really wild and super rude.

Leah: I'm remembering one, very specific one now that came to me that I still remember 25 years later. [laughs]

Nick: 25 years later! Oh, wow! Okay. So yes, And you did the polite thing.

Leah: I did, yeah.

Nick: You did the polite thing. And sometimes doing the polite thing still is not enough. And as a polite person, sometimes this is just the world we live in, unfortunately.

Leah: [sighs] What is it? Heavy is the head that takes the high road. [laughs]

Nick: Is that what it is? Okay. [laughs]

Leah: That's how—that's what I've changed it into.

Nick: Heavy is the head that wears the etiquette crown? Ooh, can we get etiquette crowns? Ooh, that's an accessory I need.

Leah: We could, but mine will say "Inelegant."

Nick: [laughs] Okay. And mine will say "Elegant?"

Leah: Yours will say "Elegant."

Nick: I mean, it feels kind of inelegant to have a crown that says "Elegant." Shouldn't it be inherently elegant?

Leah: [laughs] Yours just doesn't say anything.

Nick: Right. Yeah, I feel like it's just like when your own initials are enough.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Yeah, so first dates. So have a great time. You know, you can't get a job if you don't apply.

Leah: Have a fun time.

Nick: And just treat everybody with respect and the way you would want to be treated. And there's a lid for every pot. And if something goes horribly wrong and somebody commits a major etiquette crime, we're here for you, and let us know and send us text messages or leave us a voicemail or send us an email about what happened. And we would love to hear about your bad first date etiquette.

Leah: And then we'll collectively get rid of it and will exorcise it.

Nick: Yes, we'll have an etiquette exorcism.

Leah: That would be ...

Nick: Oh, that's a new service.

Leah: We should do an etiquette exorcism. I think a lot of us are holding back a lot of stories that we need cleansed.

Nick: Yes. "Cleansed" is the right word. Yeah. And then think of the outfits, Leah.

Leah: I have visualized capes, maybe?

Nick: Oh, definitely. There's definitely a cape. A good sleeve. Yeah, we have our capes, and then we have our etiquette crowns. I mean, what a look.

Leah: We should show up at your house. I'm imagining us as the people who came around during the plague. [laughs]

Nick: We'll cleanse the whole place.

Leah: And I'll be like, "You're a good person."

Nick: Okay. I'm gonna get my sewing machine out right now. We're gonna make some capes.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: And we're back, and now it's time to take some questions from you all in the wilderness.

Leah: [howls]

Nick: So our first question is quote, "I'm going on a trip back home to my home state soon, but we'll be staying about three hours from where the majority of my family and friends are for most of the trip. I want to let them know that I'm coming, but I'm also not willing to drive to see them. They'd have to drive to see me. How do I announce this and open the invitation, while making it clear I'm not there to do a carousel of visits to where they live, but to actually have a relaxing vacation. I'm afraid they'll be offended when they find out I traveled nearby without telling them about it first. Help!"

Leah: I wrote a little text I thought you could send out.

Nick: Oh, okay. Let's hear it.

Leah: Because this feels like a very Leah question.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, I can see you having this issue.

Leah: So I don't know where you are. So I just made it up.

Nick: Okay. Narnia.

Leah: Yeah. "Hey, I'm going to be in Narnia on Blankety Blank Blank, but I'm staying in this part of Narnia. If you're driving through, I'd love to see you."

Nick: Yeah, I think that's good. I guess my first thing was, like, three hours away? Like, do we even need to announce anything? Like, that's very far.

Leah: But what if, say, you are living in New York City.

Nick: Right?

Leah: You grew up in Orlando.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But you're gonna be in Naples.

Nick: Okay. So it's like I'm—I'm in the state.

Leah: I'm in the state. I'm letting my friends and family know I'm in the state. I don't want them to feel like I hid being in the state. But I'm gonna stay in Naples. I'm maxing and relaxing. If you're in the area, please feel free to swing by.

Nick: Yeah, I guess that's nice. And I guess we would want to do that rather than just seeing it on Instagram that, like, I'm in the state and then it's sort of like, "Oh, you didn't call."

Leah: Yeah. And seemingly our letter-writer is, like, happy to see them if they come down to where they are.

Nick: Right. And yeah, I guess I would probably just say, like, "Hey, I'm gonna be in Naples, and I will be free on this date and this afternoon if you happen to be able to come down. Unfortunately, I'm not gonna be able to come to Orlando this trip, but if you are able to come over to Naples, then we'd be delighted." Yeah, I guess that's what we would say in that kind of tone. And then if they're offended, I mean, I guess, what do we do with that? "Sorry."

Leah: I can't imagine why they would be offended. "I can't come up this time."

Nick: Yeah, it's not possible.

Leah: "This is a break. I'm taking a break."

Nick: Yeah. And if you want to be offended, well then I guess you do you.

Leah: You do you.

Nick: Enjoy being offended, but I can't get involved.

Leah: And then you can just repeat. "I'd love to see if you want to come down."

Nick: Yeah, That's all you can do. Well, great. Well, this was easy peasy.

Leah: I think it's just that when we go home, we feel a sense of obligation to see everybody.

Nick: Yes.

Leah: And that in itself becomes, like, a lot to do. And so you want to be able to go on vacation in a place nearby and not not see people, but also let people know I'm on a break. You're not obligated.

Nick: Yes. Because going home, I think few of us feel like going home is a vacation. We might enjoy going home, and it's lovely and all that, but like to use the word "vacation?" I don't know if that's always the word we would use when we're, like, going home. So I get—I get this.

Leah: Because you want to see a lot of people. It's a lot of scheduling, but I think that's—this is the perfect way to do it. You got to take a break. You're having downtime. Anybody's welcome to come by.

Nick: Yeah. So ...

Leah: Have a great trip!

Nick: Have a great trip! Yeah, don't feel guilty. So our next question is quote, "This happened a few weeks ago, but I'm still haunted. I was picking up some pizza, and there was a bell that said, 'Please ring for service.' I didn't, and got service in a few minutes. Was I wrong not to ring?"

Leah: I love the aversion to bells. Even when there's a note, 'Ring the bell.' It just feels so aggressive.

Nick: So would you have rung or not rung? Because this question feels like something out of your life.

Leah: If there was a note, I feel like I would have rung.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But I can also visualize myself standing there not wanting to ring. And I mean, I visualize it clearly because I'm sure I've done it. But it's just that people are in the back and they can't hear you.

Nick: But even if there wasn't a note, there's a bell on the counter. What else is that for? It's not decorative.

Leah: No, I know, but ...

Nick: Right?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Not decorative.

Leah: No, it's a good point.

Nick: And we can all picture the bell. It's like the little metal bell thing that is like, oh, it's a bell for ringing, for service. Like, that's what—like, why else do we have this bell? Why is this manufactured?

Leah: If there is no note, maybe somebody just put a bell there and not the people that ...

Nick: Oh, it's just one of those stray bells.

Leah: It's a stray bell.

Nick: Okay. [laughs]

Leah: And then they think that you brought a bell and rang it.

Nick: Oh, BYOB. Yeah.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I mean, wouldn't it be amazing if you actually just went around New York City leaving those bells in different stores?

Leah: [laughs] Yes.

Nick: [laughs] And you just, like, slap one on the counter and just, like, see what happens and just like, oh, now people are ringing for service at Lululemon.

Leah: And you come out and you're like, "There wasn't a bell here."

Nick: That would be so great. Um, so let's assume this is not an errant bell.

Leah: Not an errant bell.

Nick: And that you are supposed to ring it for service. I feel like that's what this is designed for. Now I do think that there is a time when it's appropriate. So I do think we want to give it a beat to make sure, like, oh, this counter is not staffed at the moment. Okay, I will summon someone by hitting the bell. I don't think we want to have someone walking towards us, making direct eye contact with us, and you reach over and you hit the bell as they're walking towards you.

Leah: [laughs] Can you imagine?

Nick: That would be so amazing. That would be so amazing.

Leah: Or you do one of these: da-ding ding ding ding, da-ding ding ding ding.

Nick: Or you actually are having a conversation with somebody, and it's a customer service problem where they're, like, actually not able to help you or you're upset and you ring the bell and you're like, "Maybe I can get some service."

Leah: [laughs] No, no, no.

Nick: "I'm ringing this bell now because I was hoping to get some service." [laughs] No, but I get—I mean, I guess there's people in the world that just feel bad about ringing a bell like this because—what is it, Leah? Get me into your head. Why would you hesitate to ring the bell? What is it about it?

Leah: It just feels so aggressive. A) The bell ding, it's like that—it's so piercing and ...

Nick: Oh, some are quite lovely.

Leah: They are not. And ...

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Like, a church bell is lovely. Or, like, those bells that like—but that metal bell, it's like, "Ping!"

Nick: So if I was at a deli and they had a church bell, would you be more comfortable ringing a church bell?

Leah: That would be way more comfortable ringing that.

Nick: To get some prosciutto?

Leah: That would be so funny. It's just like a lower tenor.

Nick: I mean, does it feel like you ...

Leah: It feels demanding.

Nick: Summoning, like, the staff?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Does it just feel like a little Upstairs, Downstairs?

Leah: Yeah, it's like, "Hey, pay attention to me!" That's what it feels like. Yes, a little Upstairs, Downstairs.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: But what it is is that they can't hear you in the back. That's—it's all these other things are just—are fears of what we're gonna ...

Nick: Well, and also it's designed to actually make their lives more convenient.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: So rather than just hanging out up front, seeing if anybody walks in, it's actually designed for their convenience where they can be in the back doing whatever they need to be doing, and then, like, when somebody shows up like, oh, they know. So it actually is helping them.

Leah: Yes, that's what I would—that's why I would ring the bell.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: But it would take me that second to be like, "This is just what it is. They're in the back and they're doing stuff, and I'm letting them know I'm here." But all those other feelings would come up first. So I totally understand why our letter-writer is, quote, "Still haunted."

Nick: I am gonna go buy some bells and I'm gonna leave them around New York City and see what happens.

Leah: Please make videos.

Nick: [laughs] Can you imagine if I did this?

Leah: I can imagine. I just imagined it and I want a video.

Nick: Well, I'll keep you posted. And in the meantime, do you have questions for us about anything? Let us know. You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW

Nick: And we're back. And now it's time to play a game we like to call Vent or Repent.

Leah: Vent or repent!

Nick: Which is our opportunity to vent about some bad etiquette experience we've had recently. Or we can repent for some etiquette faux pas we've committed. So Leah, would you like to vent or repent?

Leah: I'm-a vent.

Nick: Okay. What has happened?

Leah: I know that statistically, we were hoping for more repents.

Nick: I mean, I hope for nothing at this point.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] All right. What's happened for you?

Leah: Okay, I—I'm at the dog park.

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: I'm there early.

Nick: Okay. It's a beautiful morning.

Leah: Beautiful morning. I'm over by the water pump. They have a water pump for dogs. You fill up the dishes or you fill up your own dish.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: You know, I usually have my own dish. There's a woman there. It becomes clear very quickly that she believes these are her water pumps.

Nick: Oh, okay. And they are not, to be clear.

Leah: They are not.

Nick: This is not her dog park. Okay.

Leah: And she is the mayor of the water pumps.

Nick: Oh, okay.

Leah: Telling you which ones—she was like, "That's fresh water. That's not." And I—you know, I just, "Hey, have a great day." I got my "Hey, have a great day" face on, you know?

Nick: Nice.

Leah: Not fighting over a water pump.

Nick: Hopefully not.

Leah: And then I put—it doesn't matter how I do it. I'm pumping the water how I pump the water.

Nick: I mean, are there that many methods?

Leah: Exactly. Also, if I'm getting the water into my cup?

Nick: If there's water that is now coming out of the pump and into your dish, I think we're good.

Leah: Yep. There's water coming out the pump into my little Lacey dish. She yells from the other side of the—she's now sort of circling the pumps, just watching me touch her property that's not her property.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: She yells, "Why would you ever pump water like that? That's not how it's done."

Nick: Wow!

Leah: Which—what?

Nick: Well, I guess now begs it the question: how were you doing it? And what did she want you to do?

Leah: The thing is is that it doesn't matter how I was doing it.

Nick: Fair enough, yes.

Leah: Because it has nothing to do with her. Literally nothing to do. And the fact that she would comment on it and, like, she's so offended by I'm pouring water. It's an open park. What is your problem? And, like, she starts walking towards me.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: It was just unhinged. I'll tell you how I do it, if you want to know. I take the bowl ...

Nick: Uh-huh.

Leah: And I put it between my knees.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: People put their dog bowls down on the ground and then do the pump.

Nick: Okay. Might splash that way.

Leah: But I hate it because it splashes.

Nick: Okay, so you have it a little higher so it doesn't splash. Okay.

Leah: So it doesn't splash. I'm not wasting water.

Nick: Great.

Leah: And I'm getting in a great glute workout.

Nick: And so this is the problem?

Leah: Yeah. "Why would you do that? Who pours water that way?" I mean, she didn't stop, and I was like, "I can't. I cannot."

Nick: It does never fail to blow my mind how much free time people have.

Leah: Yeah. What are you doing?

Nick: Just the amount of bandwidth that this takes. And it's like, I don't have this bandwidth to be emotionally invested in the way a stranger is pouring water out of a water pump. Like, I just don't have that in me. I just don't have the bandwidth. And, like, I—how amazing that you have this bandwidth. Like, what an achievement!

Leah: Thank goodness we have a water pump police because people would just be out here giving their dogs water in all different kinds of ways.

Nick: And what do we do with these kinds of people? I mean, I guess smile and nod. That's all we can do.

Leah: I just smiled at her and I go, "Hey, that's how I do it."

Nick: Wow. Well, guess the dog park never fails to provide good content.

Leah: [laughs] No, it really doesn't.

Nick: [laughs]

Leah: I mean, can you imagine?

Nick: It just is like people have too much free time.

Leah: I guarantee she's like this in every aspect of her life.

Nick: Oh. Oh, yeah. No, this is not limited to the water pumps at the dog park. Oh, that's for sure.

Leah: I felt like her dog looked over at me and was like, "You don't even know. You have no idea what I'm feeling."

Nick: [laughs] I feel sorry for the dog. Yeah, absolutely.

Leah: The dog was like, "You cannot believe this stuff I have to put up with."

Nick: Well, speaking of putting up with stuff, I would like to vent.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So I was in London last weekend, which was super fun. And I went to the theater because I like theater here and they have theater there and, like, why not? So I went to go see Cabaret. Great new production. And when you walk in, they ask you for your phone, and they take a sticker and they put a sticker on the camera on your phone.

Leah: Oh, wow!

Nick: And, like—right. Isn't that amazing?

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: And I'd never seen that before. And, like, that makes so much sense, which is like, "Oh, please just enjoy the experience at the show tonight and don't take pictures. And we're gonna put a little sticker on your phone to remind you of that." And I'm like, what a refreshing thing to be at a theater that is so conscientious about the etiquette of its patrons. Like, what a great thing.

Leah: Love it.

Nick: Like, we don't have this in New York. We could take a page from this playbook. And before the show starts, like, in the bar area, there's performers dancing, like, on the bar and there's musicians and, like, they really did create, like, this cabaret vibe even before the show starts and like, oh, isn't that fun? So as I then discovered, this theater giveth, but then this theater taketh away.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And so one of the ways that this theater makes some money—and who am I to begrudge some profit, but one of the ways they do make money is they sell drinks. But with those drinks, they also sell snacks. They sell snacks. And they sell something specifically called "Drink Biscuits." And these drink biscuits come in cardboard boxes, which are apparently hermetically sealed shut and impossible to open delicately.

Leah: Mmm.

Nick: And inside these little cardboard boxes is the loudest cellophane you have ever heard. Like, I don't know what kind of NASA material this is made out of, but this is very high tech cellophane that is very audible. And then the "biscuits"—which is a British word for "cracker"—are dry as all get up and they are the loudest snap. I mean, these are fresh biscuits. I mean, I do applaud that they do have fresh merchandise. These have a nice snap, and it is impossible to eat crackers quietly. It's just not possible. And so now I'm in a theater full of people who have these boxes of drink biscuits, and everybody has them because everybody got a drink, everybody has biscuits. And they're ripping out this cardboard and it's so loud. And then they're crinkling all the cellophane, and then they're eating all these biscuits. And it is the loudest snacking you ever heard. It is so loud. It is unbelievably loud.

Nick: I have never been in a space with more munching happening. And it's like, you guys are not at home. This is not home. Like, I'm a real person. Those people on stage are real people. Like, all this is actually happening. And the person next to me, I did, like, catch their eye and I was sort of like, "Are you really gonna, like, eat this entire thing?"

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: And then they try to eat the biscuits more slowly, which is actually the wrong move. To eat a biscuit slowly what you end up doing is you put the whole thing in your mouth, and then you actually make your mouth cavity larger, which in terms of harmonics, amplifies sound. The sound of the chewing was louder, and now all I can hear is chewing. That's all I could hear. I just get to hear a thousand people in this space chewing. And so I want to vent because I don't feel like we should be snacking in a live theater experience.

Leah: How about if it's mushy?

Nick: Okay, I will give you mashed potatoes.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: I will give you Jell-O shots. Oh, no. Do I want Jell-O shots? No. Because then it's a slurping thing that's happening and that's not good.

Leah: Maybe a mutton?

Nick: Mutton! Yes. I want Sloppy Joe's, mutton ...

Leah: A cream of wheat, perhaps?

Nick: Rice pudding. No, I don't think I want food in a theater. I think maybe we just don't do food in a theater situation. Drinks? Fine. I can handle you sipping as long as it's not like a Slurpee. But yeah, the drink biscuits? It was real aggressive.

Nick: So one thing I do like, though, is that bad etiquette at the theater is universal. And so I do find that that unites us. You know, maybe us and the Brits, we're not that different after all. So I do take some comfort in the universality of it all. But just don't munch. Don't munch.

Leah: I love visualizing the person next to you, seeing your eyes and then just putting the whole thing into their face. And being like ...

Nick: Yeah. No, it was like the slo-mo, like, "Oh, I'll be now real quiet," which actually makes it 10 times louder. Yeah, it was distracting.

Leah: While Cabaret is going, while people are singing.

Nick: While Cabaret is happening. And you know that the munching was not happening during the loud moments or applause breaks. It was like, "Oh, no, World War II is happening, and it's a real quiet moment where we're trying to actually be very poignant and emotional," and like, "Oh, let me take the most quietest, silentest part to take a bite." Yeah, that's when that was happening.

Leah: Yeah. It's like if you gotta snack, we snack during the loud numbers.

Nick: Loud numbers.

Leah: A lot of stomping. The stomping? Get that snack out.

Nick: Stomping in rhythm, preferably. Yes. On the two and the four. Not the one and the three, okay? [laughs]

Leah: "I want you to chew on the two and the four unless it's an off-beat dance, then feel free to chew on the one and the three."

Nick: Right. "If it's syncopated, we're gonna leave it up to you. But just do your best with that."

Leah: I just imagined you at the top of a theater, like, at the Rose before people are walking down, and just telling them when they can chew. "On the two and the four in the second song."

Nick: Actually, that's a great idea. We should have a chewing conductor. So we have a specific conductor in the audience with a baton who is gonna then give you the downbeat when you can actually take a bite.

Leah: Yes! And they're up at the front so the actors can't see them.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But if you're chewing ...

Nick: Yeah, just watch the baton.

Leah: ... we have a chewing conductor.

Nick: Yeah. "On the downbeat, have a bite of that mutton." Yeah, that's how that should work. Okay, well, we solved the problem now.

Leah: Solved the problem.

Nick: Great. All right, mission accomplished.

Nick: So Leah, what have we learned?

Leah: I learned that you're gonna get your sewing kit out.

Nick: Oh yeah.

Leah: And make us some etiquette exorcism outfits.

Nick: Yep. I am gonna actually go to Mood, buy some fabric this weekend. Yeah, keep you posted on that.

Leah: And this will be a new service that we can provide.

Nick: We will show up at your house and we will provide an etiquette exorcism. Yeah.

Leah: Which I would really be into.

Nick: Oh, this is a wonderful service. Oh, yeah. No, this is needed. I don't think anybody else is currently providing etiquette exorcisms. This is a hole in the marketplace.

Leah: And now that we've said it out loud, I'm like, "Yes!"

Nick: Yes!

Leah: We gotta fix this for people!

Nick: Yes! And I learned that the first etiquette exorcism we're gonna do is on you for this message from 25 years ago.

Leah: Whoo! Now that it's back out in my brain, it is definitely gonna—and I think I still have it on a phone where it was texted to me with, like, the T9 feature. [laughs]

Nick: Yeah, get that star tech out. Okay. Get this number, figure out who this was, and then figure out where they live now. I mean, there's some sleuthing involved, but I'm prepared to get to the bottom of this.

Leah: We're also gonna have to get our detective license in the middle of this.

Nick: Well, I feel like etiquette exorcisms and detective work, I think, go hand in hand.

Leah: Yes!

Nick: Well, thank you, Leah.

Leah: Thank you, Nick.

Nick: And thanks to you out there for listening. I'd send you a handwritten note on my custom stationery if I could.

Leah: He would!

Nick: So for your homework this week, send us your etiquette exorcism requests.

Leah: Please! We can exorcise them collectively.

Nick: Yeah. All together. So anything bonkers that's happened that needs an exorcism, we're here for you. Just let us know what happened and we'll do the rest.

Leah: We be exorcising.

Nick: We be exorcising. So please send those in, and we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!

Nick: All right, Leah, it's time for Cordials of Kindness, the part of the show that you make us do but I only give you 30 seconds to do it. Ready, set, go!

Leah: So I would like to do a Cordials of Kindness to Joy Wong, who came out to a comedy show, and she actually brought some *Were You Raised By Wolves? merch.

Nick: Yes!

Leah: And I had to sign it. And then she was an absolute delight. We had a fun combo, and then she sent pictures that she took, and they were lovely pictures. And also, may I say, at a very nice angle. So I really appreciate that, Joy.

Nick: And for me, I want to give a special thank you to William Hanson. So William is the director of the English Manner, which is like the etiquette training institute in the United Kingdom. And I reached out to him because I was gonna be in London and I was like, "Hey, I would love to meet if you're around. Maybe we'll do a coffee or, like, a drink or something." And he wrote back and he's like, "Would be so delighted. Let's do breakfast at Claridge's, my treat." And I was like, "Oh, okay. That just escalated!" So I had a wonderful breakfast with him, and it was so fun meeting him. And he's got a great podcast called Help, I Sexted My Boss. And he's got fun videos on his Instagram, so I'll link to all of his stuff in our show notes so you can, like, check them out. But William, it was so delightful meeting you, and I would love to return the favor if you're in New York. And it was, like, totally delightful. So thanks.

Leah: So fun.

Nick: Very fun!