Accepting Unwanted Packages, Eating Duplicate Salads, Celebrating Letter Openers, and More

Nick: Hey, everybody. It's Nick Leighton.

Leah: And it's Leah Bonnema.

Nick: And we had so many great questions from you all in the wilderness ...

Leah: [howls]

Nick: ... that we have a bonus episode. So here we go! Our first question is quote, "My husband and I recently bought a home. Yay! The couple we bought the house from have downsized and live in a condo about 15 minutes away, which they owned for a number of months before selling their house. We bought the house over five months ago now, and are still getting mail—bank documents, bills from contractors, et cetera—and packages addressed to the previous owners. At first it was very understandable, but it's getting to be a bit much—especially the packages. There have been times when we are traveling and they text us asking if we've received the packages, which is frustrating because having things sit in front of the house while we're away could highlight our absence, and leaves room for the items to be stolen.

Nick: "But more recently, they have ordered things to be sent to the house and not told us or asked us about it, thereby prompting us to reach out. Every time this happens, they drive over and pick up the packages that we leave at the side door for them. But my husband and I are torn; I'm beginning to feel like we are a package management service, and don't know how to clearly communicate to them that this is a burden. My husband is happy to continue to text them when things arrive, and he says that if it must annoy them too, to drive over here to pick up the packages, so eventually they'll stop. Any advice for how I can politely indicate that I would appreciate it if they make sure that their mailing address is fully updated with all stores, relatives, et cetera? At what point can we stop reaching out to them about packages that are being delivered here?"

Leah: I feel irritated by this.

Nick: [laughs] Well, this story took a turn for me.

Leah: It took a turn.

Nick: Right? Because okay, we moved. You know, stuff sometimes goes to the old address.

Leah: Of course.

Nick: I get that.

Leah: Of course.

Nick: But now it sounds like we are deliberately having stuff sent to this house. [laughs]

Leah: It really does. And it's like mail is one thing because, like, bills slip by, you forget about things. Some people just don't—you send them the address change, they don't update it.

Nick: Right.

Leah: But packages.

Nick: Packages. And now we actually go out of our way to have them sent to you because it's just easier because I guess I don't have a doorman at my condo?

Leah: I mean, I thought some very dark thoughts, Nick. [laughs]

Nick: Oh, tell me everything! Those are my favorite thoughts.

Leah: I do love, though—I appreciate that the couple is split.

Nick: Okay.

Leah: Where he's like, "Let's just let it go." And she's like, "Let's return to sender." You know what I mean?

Nick: Well, the husband's logic here is that oh, it must annoy them too, and eventually it'll stop. No, no. These people love it because they get somebody accepting their packages.

Leah: Yeah. They—I don't think it's gonna stop.

Nick: No, it's not gonna stop.

Leah: Until you say something specifically.

Nick: Yeah. I think we have to say something along the lines of, like, "Totally understand it takes time to get settled, but it is an issue for us to have things sitting on the porch, and it's a bit of an inconvenience. And so would it be possible just to have everything sent to your new address now?"

Leah: I think I would start with that exactly. With the when-you're-out-of-town thing, and obviously lovely way to start. "Totally understand the mail slipping through, of course. So much to change, big moves, et cetera, et cetera."

Nick: Right.

Leah: "You know, but when packages get sent here and we're not here, it highlights that we're not here. It makes us uncomfortable. If you could update the package mailing, we'd really appreciate it. Sure you understand."

Nick: "Sure you understand." Yes. And I mean, oh, I just—the idea that they've already been living in this condo five months prior to them selling this house? So now it sounds like, I think we have 10 months here now? We're approaching a year.

Leah: Yeah. That's a very important detail. They already had a five-month lead up.

Nick: Right. So but I think if we just emphasize the theft concern—which I think is legitimate—and the idea that, like, unfortunately, we're not able to do this for you anymore. Because I don't want a negotiation.

Leah: Yeah, it's not a negotiation.

Nick: I don't want a negotiation where, like, "Oh, the theft thing. Oh, it's a very safe neighborhood. Don't worry about it." Like, I don't want that conversation. So it does need to pivot towards, like, "Unfortunately, we're just not able to continue doing this for you."

Leah: And then I think if it keeps coming, I don't know. Let me tap this out, you say what you think?

Nick: Okay?

Leah: We have, like, a box. We just throw their stuff in. We don't text them about it. We don't—and then when they want to come get—they're like, "Was this here?" And you're like, "Yeah, feel free to come get it." You know, you don't now message them when you get stuff. You don't say, "When is good for you?" You just push it aside.

Nick: Okay. I mean ...

Leah: Because the other option is to send it back.

Nick: I kind of like that option. I mean, I think the first time you send something back, I think that would end it pretty quick because it's gonna be like, "Oh, if something shows up at that house, we're not gonna get it."

Leah: That was my first thought, but then I was like, "I'm overreacting."

Nick: Well, we can't start there. We do need to give them the opportunity to, like, fix this on their end. And so, like, they need to be put on notice that, like, if you continue to do this, this may happen to you. So when it does happen, then they can't be like, "Oh, my gosh! We had no idea."

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: So we need to create that expectation.

Leah: Yeah. We start with the, "Of course things fall through. Understand. It makes us uncomfortable because we're gone. And then it sits outside. Can't do this anymore." See what happens then. After that, we start returning to sender.

Nick: But the box of stuff in my attic, I think that would actually make me mad to know that there's just, like, this box of your stuff. And that I have to see you, because now? Now I'm resentful. And so now I have to, like, hold this stuff for you, and then I have to see you again. Like, I don't love that.

Leah: I love that we don't even know these people. They're not like, "Oh, it's my sister."

Nick: Yeah. No, these are just the people we bought the house from.

Leah: Ugh!

Nick: Sorry this is happening to you.

Leah: I'm so sorry. We tell them no, they continue to do it ...

Nick: Then anything you want to do is fine from there. Because you set a boundary.

Leah: Anything you want to do. You've set a boundary. But there could be a middle between the returning and then—because the husband apparently texts them whenever stuff comes in.

Nick: Right.

Leah: You just stop letting them know. You figure out what you want to do with this stuff. But, like, you're no longer involved in this.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, that seems a little petty to sort of, like, keep the packages but not alert them.

Leah: Yeah, but eventually they'll be like, "Do you have stuff?" And you'll be like, "Of course we do."

Nick: But that's not gonna stop the stuff from coming because, like, they have tracking numbers. So I want the behavior to end. I don't want to see these people again. They're taking advantage of me.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: And I don't like that.

Leah: I'm just trying to find a middle step, Nick.

Nick: Yeah, sometimes there's no middle steps. Sometimes you just gotta go to—gotta go to the top step.

Leah: It's gotta end. I just don't think they're gonna do it on the first.

Nick: No, it's like a vending machine. You gotta give it a couple good pushes before you can tip it over. So ...

Leah: Some really fun ...

Nick: A lot of visuals in this episode so far.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Okay. So our next question is quote, "I would love to hear your opinion on a recent dining experience I had. I was out to dinner at a somewhat fancy local restaurant with my husband, my dad, and my dad's partner. I am a vegetarian, and there was only one vegetarian entrée on the menu that I was not interested in. However, there was an appetizer salad that appealed to me. My dad suggested asking the waitress if it would be okay for me to order the salad in a larger size to have as my entrée. Instead of this, the chef wanted to serve two appetizer-sized salads to be served one after the other, rather than combined. I agreed to this as it was not a big deal, but it felt strange to receive and eat two of the exact same dish sequentially. Dinner was lovely overall, and I understand a chef gets to make these decisions, but I am curious for your thoughts. Why do you think the chef preferred to serve the salad this way?"

Leah: Having worked in the food industry, I will say that chefs like things the way they like things.

Nick: Yeah, I think that's a reasonable explanation here.

Leah: And they're like, "This is the size, these are the proportions. There's this many tomatoes for this many bed of radicchios." You know what I mean?

Nick: Is there any endive in the salad?

Leah: [laughs] There's a little endive. And that's how they visualized it. And so they were like, "You may have two of these, but I am not combining them."

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess is this salad something that has some balance of flavors or textures, and if it became twice as big, it would lose all of that? I guess. I mean, is that what's happening, or is this just a Caesar salad and it's sort of like it could be twice as big.

Leah: But even I feel like a chef is like, "It's not just a Caesar, it's my Caesar."

Nick: Right. And obviously, no anchovies in this vegetarian version, FYI. Yeah, I guess that would be the explanation. It is a little weird though, which is like, "Oh, I'm just gonna have the salad." And then the next course comes. "Oh, I get the salad again." [laughs]

Leah: Yeah, it's definitely odd. I mean, the other option is they're pre-proportioned, and he doesn't want to throw them into a salad bowl together.

Nick: Pre-proportioned salad? Like, oh, they're—they're already ready to go? They're already in the fridge?

Leah: They're already ready to go and, like, Saran Wrapped in a fridge. And they're like, "We just can't possibly." I'm just throwing out all the options.

Nick: Yeah. It's a fancy local restaurant, but I guess I don't know where this is. Maybe this is somewhat fancy for this area.

Leah: I'm just throwing out all the options because it does seem curious.

Nick: Yes. I mean, it is curious because it feels like they could have accommodated this request. I mean, there's a lot of requests I can totally understand not accommodating that diners have. But, you know, they have big plates. They probably have a plate that's big enough for twice as much salad.

Leah: Also, maybe we have a chef who's listening who can shed some light on this.

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I guess it's just the idea that, "Oh, this plate is my canvas, and this is my artistic creation. And this is my vision for this dish, and it shan't be disturbed."

Leah: Or maybe they just really wanted you to have an appetizer?

Nick: Oh, like they didn't want you just to, like, not have anything for that course?

Leah: And they were like, "You're getting an app."

Nick: "You're getting an app, which is gonna be the same as your entrée.

Leah: Yeah.

Nick: Would that have been better than just bringing me two plates side by side for my entrée?

Leah: But then I think they know that she would have just combined it, and then it would have ruined the Mona Lisa.

Nick: Oh, you think at the table, I'm gonna take one plate and, like, scrape off all the lettuce into the other plate?

Leah: Why would you not? It's so silly to have two plates of the same thing.

Nick: That would take up a lot of room, but I guess that's an option, right? I guess that's a somewhat option.

Leah: I'd love to know what kind of salad it was.

Nick: That actually feels like a key detail because in my mind, I'm just picturing just sort of like, some greens, some lettuce, and then there was, like, some things in the lettuce, and then there's, like, a dressing of some sort.

Leah: I feel like it had to be a specific kind of a symphony. And too much of one, even if it's just doubled, it ruins it.

Nick: It needed to have some architecture to it. It must have been sculptural in some way.

Leah: Yes.

Nick: Where, like, we can't make this tower of zucchini sticks twice as big, and so it just needs to be this. Right?

Leah: It's really the only thing that makes sense, unless they were just like, "No, you're getting an app."

Nick: I mean, but if this is spinach with goat cheese and some walnuts and cranberry and a balsamic dressing? If that is what this salad is, I will be so mad. Because that can be twice as big. You could absolutely keep the integrity of your vision, and you can make that twice as big.

Leah: I think probably most salads could be twice as big. We were just coming up against somebody who was very specific.

Nick: Yeah. I hope this is a really special salad. Yes.

Leah: I hope it was good. Which is not mentioned in this letter at all.

Nick: That's true. Did they say it's good?

Leah: They didn't even say it was good.

Nick: "Dinner was lovely, overall." Hmm. So that's interesting.

Leah: Interesting.

Nick: That's noted. We don't really call out the salad and its deliciousness.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Hmm. Okay. [laughs]

Leah: Huh!

Nick: Hmm. Curiouser and curiouser.

Leah: Also, I wonder if the salad was absolutely fantastic if they would have written in this letter because they would have been like, "I get it."

Nick: "I get it." Yes. "This salad is so great, and it really was great as is. And I'm so glad they didn't listen to my request. And I trust their judgment."

Leah: "Because there was just the right amount of citrus to pop off this other thing over here. And had it been combined, maybe I wouldn't have gotten that layering of flavor."

Nick: "And it was so great, I'm so happy that I got it again 10 minutes later to do it all over again."

Leah: [laughs] Yeah, I'm not getting that vibe.

Nick: No. So our next question is quote, "I have an etiquette question regarding technology. I recently noticed that a friend has shared her location on the Find app, which means I can see where she is at all times. I think she shared this with me when she was on an international trip, and wanted my advice on restaurants and attractions near her lodging. But that was months ago. Should I tell her I can see her location all day, every day? Or should I say nothing and let her figure it out? I don't want her to think that I've been spying on her, but I also don't want her to wonder why I didn't tell her about this situation immediately. I rarely use this app, but if I do open the app to locate my earbuds or phone, her location info pops up on screen. What's the polite thing to do here?"

Leah: I don't think she's gonna think you were spying on her. I think you should just be like, "Hey, I just opened my phone to find my earbuds and I realized you're still sharing your location."

Nick: Yeah. "Thought you should know."

Leah: "Thought you should know."

Nick: Yeah, I don't think there's anything past that, right?

Leah: Not at all. I don't think she's gonna think you've been following her.

Nick: No.

Leah: And I have friends who share their location with me. And just if they're like taking a cab or they're, like, traveling alone. And then I just—I think they feel safe having somebody else know their location.

Nick: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

Leah: So I think you could also say, "If you want to keep your location shared for traveling, that's cool. I just want to make sure you knew."

Nick: Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Offered almost as like a kidnapping and ransom awareness service?

Leah: Yep.

Nick: Yeah. No, that's true. Yeah, that's good advice. So yeah, that's what I would do. Yeah, that's my advice. Yeah.

Leah: I think that's gonna be the most straightforward question all episode.

Nick: Yeah. It can be done! [laughs]

Leah: It feels good to be able to have the answer to one.

Nick: Yeah, we nailed it. So our next question is quote, "My family and I had a heated debate over a weekend get together, and we would love for you to weigh in." Oh, I love these types of questions!

Leah: These are our favorites, probably.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I mean, we really love them all, but we love it when we get to ...

Nick: Yeah. If we can settle the debate? I mean, this is really where we shine.

Leah: What a time!

Nick: So they continue. "My brother-in-law is an avid wine collector and newly-certified sommelier. While visiting, he treated us to some of his favorite wines, and even went so far as to give each of us some from his private collection. I wanted to thank him by getting him and my sister a little gift basket. Where we got into the debate was I wanted to give them a few bottles of wine. I'm no sommelier, but I do enjoy wine and I wanted to choose a Sauvignon Blanc since that is the style that they like. However, my dad said this could be considered an insult, or they may not enjoy it if I choose a wine that is not high enough quality. I looked at wines, and then got so caught up on whether or not I could pick one that would be up to their standards that I just went with getting them coffee beans from our favorite coffee shop. And who doesn't love coffee? So what do you think? Is it appropriate for the average wine drinker to get your family sommelier a gift of wine, or is it better to gift them something else?"

Leah: I'd like to roll back for a second, which I know Nick particularly loves when I do. Loves it!

Nick: Uh-huh. Okay, is this the question that we just said, like, "Oh, we're so pleased with ourselves that we had such a definitive answer?"

Leah: Further back. Further back.

Nick: Okay. [laughs]

Leah: I got so worked up about these people sending packages to your house.

Nick: Oh, we're going back to the beginning.

Leah: Of the letter-writer. I just want to say real quick, "Congratulations on your new home!"

Nick: Oh, yes. Congratulations! Yeah. Oh, that's—yeah, very nice.

Leah: That's really wonderful. And I just was so irritated about these people that I forgot to celebrate up top. Huge apologies. Wonderful you!

Nick: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Congrats on the new home. That's a—that's a great thing.

Leah: Back to the sommelier.

Nick: Okay, so the question here is: Should you buy somebody who has expertise in a certain area a gift that is directly related to that expertise? I guess that's really the question.

Leah: See, this one made me really anxious. You know those questions that you're like, "This is the one that makes Leah anxious?" It's this one, because I really see it either way. And the one way you want to—you want to be like, "Hey, I appreciate that you're doing this. I see that you're doing this. I know this is something that you're into. I wanted to celebrate by getting you something in that vein." And then the other side is I don't want to be like, "I know stuff that you—here's something—" you know, when that's their thing that they excel at.

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: So I really feel like, "Ugh!"

Nick: So you're not gonna commit to an answer here?

Leah: I may, but I want—I needed to roll around and have anxiety about it first.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: Let me get into the human-sized dog bed, and ...

Nick: Oh, yeah. Sidebar, everybody. Do you know—Leah, explain your new purchase.

Leah: It's not a purchase, it was a gift.

Nick: Oh, explain your new gift in your house.

Leah: Which is the most me. I mean ...

Nick: I'm just sorry I didn't think of it.

Leah: So I find the floor very calming.

Nick: Being on the floor.

Leah: Being on the floor, I love, like, a shag rug. It brings me such joy. And so I love to lay on the floor with the dogs. And often I'll fall asleep, so Dustin got me a human-sized dog bed.

Nick: Which is a product that exists, by the way.

Leah: And I have never been so happy in my whole life. I lay in this bed, and then the dogs get in with me. You're, like, in a boat of calmness and safety.

Nick: Wow!

Leah: Ah! It's a dream. It's a dream!

Nick: And by dog bed, it's sort of like—like a bed with, like, little shallow rim sides like a dog bed, I guess?

Leah: The sides come up.

Nick: Yeah?

Leah: So you're sort of like in an elongated donut.

Nick: Yeah, I guess it's a dog bed. It's just—it's a dog bed.

Leah: But then, you know, in the middle, it's—it's not a hole. It's a fluffy.

Nick: Okay. All right. How wonderful.

Leah: And they have little pockets in it. So say, perhaps you're having a television marathon. You want to just shove the remote in there.

Nick: Oh. Snacks. Okay.

Leah: I'm not bringing food into it because I feel like ...

Nick: Oh, that's too far.

Leah: That's too far, Nick.

Nick: Okay, good to know. So sommelier? I think that it is tricky. It is tricky to purchase somebody a gift in their wheelhouse. I think you want to be thoughtful, though. I mean, that's the best gift, gifts that are thoughtful. And so I think if you could select a wine that has a good story with it and explanation. I think you have to give this gift with a note of explanation why you selected this wine. Then you're good. So if you're like, "Okay, I know you like Sauvignon Blancs. I know this winery near where we live. It's a small producer, and I sort of enjoyed it. I thought you might enjoy trying it, and curious to hear what you think." And you could sort of, like, do that, and you acknowledge that you know that they like a Sauvignon Blanc. And so that's very thoughtful that you paid attention and you know what they like. And I think it's something that's personal to you in your area. "Oh, this is like a winery near where we live." Or you go to the wine store and you hear about different wines, and they describe a wine that you think they might enjoy. I think that's okay. I mean, I think that's fine. And if they don't like the wine, they won't tell you, and that's fine.

Leah: I really like this answer. This sort of puts together the two of your recognizing ...

Nick: But you can't just send a bottle of wine with no explanation. So I think when you send the bottle of wine, you have to just explain, "We're getting you this bottle of wine. We acknowledge your expertise. We think you might enjoy this because of the following reasons." Which means you gave it some thought. And so I think then you're in the clear, because those reasons are true and thoughtful. And if they don't enjoy it, well then that's fine. But, like, the reasons for why you thought they might enjoy it, those are still good. So I think you could do that. But I think the dad in the story is correct in that it's a little provocative, and it is safer to get something that's gonna be wine adjacent. So I think we're talking decanters, we're talking experiences. A wine festival ticket. We're thinking of things, like, that are not wine, but, like, adjacent. Cheese! Cheese is great. Cracker. Cracker of the month subscriptions.

Leah: Oh, so everybody does love coffee, though.

Nick: Coffee is nice because that's also thoughtful, because I think this coffee came from where?

Leah: It came from their favorite coffee shop.

Nick: Right? And so, like, "Oh, we're getting you this coffee. We know there's coffee that you can buy near your house, but we're giving you this coffee because it's from our favorite coffee shop." And so that level of thoughtfulness is why that's a good gift. So I think if you can bring that same spirit to whatever gift, then I think you're in the clear.

Leah: I think Nick perfectly explained all the different layers of this, and I feel very good about this answer.

Nick: But I was thinking, is there a category of gift that I shouldn't buy you? And I was like, oh, is there something that—like, I shouldn't buy you gluten-free crackers because I assume you're just, like, the expert on that. Or, like, I shouldn't buy you pottery. Like, pottery would not be a good gift for you because you come from a family of potters. So I would never dream of, like, buying you something in the pottery world.

Leah: Mm.

Nick: Right?

Leah: I was gonna say crackers. I'm fine with whatever crackers you select for me.

Nick: [laughs] Okay.

Leah: But I can see that with pottery.

Nick: Right? And then, like, for me, like, if it's been published within the last 250 years, chances are I already have a copy or I already know I don't want it. So, like, you don't want to send me etiquette books.

Leah: But also, if you did, Nick is not gonna say anything about it. He'd say, "Thank you so much!"

Nick: Oh, never! "Thank you so much! Oh, this is wonderful. This is amazing. Thank you so much for thinking of me. So thoughtful." Toss it in the pile.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] So our next question is quote, "Can we please discuss letter openers? Who's not using letter openers? How, but how are they opening their letters? Even if it's a butter knife straight out of the cutlery drawer, surely people aren't jamming their thumbs into envelope flaps!"

Leah: I felt this was directed at me. We all know I don't have a letter opener, and I'm not jamming my thumb. I'm jamming my index finger.

Nick: So I would be happy to accommodate this letter. Can we please discuss letter openers, Leah? Can we discuss it?

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: [laughs] Oh, this is wonderful. Well, it is well documented that I use a letter opener. I enjoy a letter opener, and I think everybody should use them.

Leah: I almost felt very Shakespearean. "For what was my index finger?"

Nick: But who is not using them? I think the people that are not using them are people who do not understand the pleasure of the pure, unbridled joy of slicing through an envelope with precision. And I have an envelope right here, and I have my letter opener. And I just want—I just wanted, just like Leah, just to see my face and the sheer joy that I get as I open this letter. Let's do it together, Leah.

Leah: Okay, let's do it.

Nick: Let's see if I can capture the audio of this magic. [letter opening] Oh, so satisfying! So satisfying. And this letter opener, actually, it's the same as my flatware pattern. So the flatware I have, they—I actually found an old catalog—it's from the '60s, and I found a catalog of, like, oh, what are all the pieces that are available in this manufacturer? And so I saw that, oh, they made letter openers way back when. And so I found one in, like, an antique store. And so it's very satisfying to be able to use, like, a fork and then have my forks match my letter opener, of course.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: So everybody's letter opener should match their forks, obviously. But wasn't that satisfying? There's just something so nice about it.

Leah: It's very nice. It's very crisp. It's very clean.

Nick: And letter openers are actually kind of fascinating. So a little history. So before letter openers, there was the paper knife. And paper knives were important to have in your house because books sometimes had the pages still attached when they were, like, handmade. They weren't cut exactly right, and so the edges of the paper, like, actually might still be, like, folded over. And so at home, you would need to have some sort of knife to actually slice those pages open. So, like, learned people would often have some type of, like, knife in their desk drawer that could be used for this. And you know that famous speech, "Give me liberty or give me death?" Patrick Henry?

Leah: Yes.

Nick: So as Patrick Henry, one of our founding fathers, was giving this speech in 1775, he had a paper knife in his hand for dramatic effect, and he pretended to stab himself in the chest as he said, "Give me death." And so he had, like, this whalebone paper knife in his hand as he did it. And so, like, oh, what a historical moment involving things to slice through paper.

Leah: I love it.

Nick: So then as we go through the years, the cost of mail actually comes down. And I think there was, like, a new postage rate that was lower if you mailed mail in an envelope because, like, before, it was just like, "Oh, we're gonna seal it with wax." But if you put it in an envelope, then it was actually, like, lower postage, I think. And so more people were actually mailing letters then, and so the increase in letters and increase in envelopes meant you needed something to open all of these because back then, people weren't jamming their thumbs into envelope flaps like animals. And so people had letter openers. And a letter opener and a paper knife? Slightly different construction but, like, for our purposes, you know, kind of interchangeable. But letter openers? Yeah. I mean, everybody should have one. Homework, everybody. Audience homework. If you do not have a letter opener, get one.

Leah: You know, I think I was actually given one and I got rid of it.

Nick: Okay. I mean, if it's just not the lifestyle you want to live.

Leah: [laughs] It's not the lifestyle I want to live. I'm just saying it's not that I don't have experience with them. It just doesn't ...

Nick: Yes, I imagine you know how to use one.

Leah: I get it.

Nick: If called upon. If it was an emergency.

Leah: I could.

Nick: And you're like, "Leah, you must open this envelope." You would rise to the occasion.

Leah: I just don't have the—I'm really fine with using my finger.

Nick: I feel like you just don't know the true pleasure of a letter opener. I think maybe you're doing it wrong.

Leah: I'm not doing it wrong. It just brings me no joy.

Nick: [laughs] Maybe you're dead inside.

Leah: [laughs]

Nick: Maybe that's the problem.

Leah: Now we know! I am dead inside. This is the thing that tells you.

Nick: This is it. This is the final proof: You've derived no pleasure from letter openers. But this is also why I really dislike when I am in the elevator with neighbors, and they've just checked their mail, and they're opening their mail in the elevator, and they're not using a letter opener, and they're just making all this horrible noise, jamming their thumbs under the flaps of all these envelopes in a small space. And it's just like, ugh, could we not use a letter opener?

Leah: I can't wait to try my thumb. I see that this example was brought to us as, like, with disdain. But I think—I've been using my index finger. I'm gonna try my thumb.

Nick: Yeah. Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. I'm using my index finger. I'm trying to demo it on this envelope. Yeah. Thumb. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah. No, thumb. Yeah, if you come in on the other end, yeah, thumb would be probably what you would use, maybe. I don't know. Oh, that's interesting. Well, you shouldn't find out because you shouldn't be using your fingers at all. You should be using a letter opener. So this is not an experiment anybody should try because there is no correct way to do this with your hands. Letter opener. Thank you.

Leah: I get it.

Nick: [laughs] Someday you're gonna cave.

Leah: I think some of us were born to be wild. You know what I'm saying, Nick?

Nick: Yeah.

Leah: I just can't wear the vestments ...

Nick: [laughs] How grand!

Leah: ... of a civilized society.

Nick: Well, you out there, I hope you will. And if you have questions for us about civilized societies or anything else, let us know. You can let us know through our website, WereYouRaisedByWolves.com. Or you can leave us a voicemail or send us a text message: (267) CALL-RBW. And we'll see you next time!

Leah: Bye!

Nick: Bye!